The Book of Superman (Billy Batson)

[LordVenoc]

Think a 10 point increase or think he needs a little more than that?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Think a 10 point increase or think he needs a little more than that?

I think a 10 point increase and better defensive rolls by his opponents would probably be a good start.

(i.e. bump him 10 and see how the other tester does, lol).

[LordVenoc]

Cool that's what I was kinda thinking. Updated.

[IAmBatman]

Hmm, though big picture it might be worth considering how he compares to Superman (JL-I). Right now I think you could make a solid argument that he's clearly better for 10 points less and slots in to the same role pretty well. Only things Kal has over him are Trinity theme and JL Markers that Batman (JL-I) can move.

[MrNobody]

Superman (JL I) also isn't a competitive bastion though.

[LordVenoc]

Personally I think some of that is on JL-I Supes not being that great. Tying his blanks to shields to the number of markers on his card never made sense to me. That Kal, and how he plays is weird. He's like, all defensive powers for allys but one of the main ways he gets played is as a shark out there killing stuff until Batman saves his markers to start activating someone else. Billy seems "better" because of how the powers play out in context I'd say, especially against more melee armies that can't exploit Heroic Duty.

His statline is identical to Superman I, except you're trading ongoing defense for himself for a 1-time block for an ally, and a niche power for an, admittedly quite good, offensive power.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Superman (JL I) also isn't a competitive bastion though.

Is the goal here to make a limited edition character (Billy as Superman) a competitive bastion? If so, by all means, supplant Superman (JL I). If not, then it seems like a reasonable comparison point to consider.

Originally Posted by LordVenoc

Personally I think some of that is on JL-I Supes not being that great. Tying his blanks to shields to the number of markers on his card never made sense to me. That Kal, and how he plays is weird. He's like, all defensive powers for allys but one of the main ways he gets played is as a shark out there killing stuff until Batman saves his markers to start activating someone else. Billy seems "better" because of how the powers play out in context I'd say, especially against more melee armies that can't exploit Heroic Duty.

His statline is identical to Superman I, except you're trading ongoing defense for himself for a 1-time block for an ally, and a niche power for an, admittedly quite good, offensive power.

I would argue that Billy seems better because his statline is the same, his defensive power for allies is more reliable and useful, and he trades all the other niche and usually not terribly useful stuff Superman does for reliable auto wound opportunities and bigger auto wound opportunities against some difficult to dispatch figures.

I'm not saying he can't be or shouldn't be better than Superman (JL-I). I am saying that he seems pretty clearly better by a decent margin so it seems odd to cost him 10 points less.

[LordVenoc]

ITs reliable and useful in that its a one time use. If we'd prefer I can make the turn ending only trigger if a wound is dealt. Doesn't matter that much to me. I don't feel good upping cost on something just because of another unit is similar that I feel is overcosted. If we do feel he starts meriting going up more, sure. I'd rather the gameplay show it rather than just a comparison to a unit who was designed early in the synergies. But he has lost at an even lower value, and hasn't been getting his weakness (Heroic Duty) exploited at all really.

[IAmBatman]

I don't think the figure turn ending is driving his cost at all, so that tweak doesn't really matter to me one way or the other.

The Superman (JL-I) comparison wouldn't matter to me if it weren't so much the case of a more niche character filling an almost identical role in the same armies at a lower cost and doing it better. I think we usually at least try to avoid making previous figures irrelevant in their own faction even when those previous figures aren't A-level.

[IAmBatman]

Though I guess making the figure's turn end reliant on hitting the unblockable does at least make his protection less reliable (i.e. if the attacking figure is adjacent to their target, they'll still be able to attack 50% of the time), which makes him less clearly better at Superman (JL-I)'s intended role in the faction (other than being a beatstick, which Billy debatably does better since he can teleport into an advantageous position to hit the vulnerable pieces and can add auto wounds to the mix).

[LordVenoc]

And I think that combo is where my concern lies. Superman JL-1's best play is literally to ignore half his card in most of the cases where he's getting played. So like, him one upping that Superman in an area he basically ignores already is a weird problem to contend with. Same with a problem of too much of a beatstick for outgoing a beatstick not kitted out for it.

I'll edit to make auto turn end contingent on the wounding.

[MrNobody]

Would something like this make sense as well?

Start the game with Superman on his card instead of the battlefield. When a friendly figure is targeted for an attack, if Superman is on his card you may place him adjacent to the attacking figure, rolling one unblockable attack die against that figure. The attacking figure's turn immediately ends, then you may move any unrevealed Order Markers on Champion or Kryptonian Army Cards in your Army to this card.

Once you get JL Supes his markers, he cares way more about counterstrikes/weird defensive things than hanging with other Champions. Could be a little tweak to just give them a little more difference? (Then again, I could be biased by my JL tendencies.)