The Book of Phoenix Force

[Karat]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

If we have to make it double spaced, that does actually increase the power of Phoenix Fire 2 quite a bit. I'm actually OK with swapping to Phoenix Fire and allowing it to roll 1 die against all figures in 2 spaces vs the current 2 dice for all figures in 2 spaces.

Personally, I'm ok with the extra oomph it would have as a double spaced figure, I mean, it IS the Phoenix Force we are talking about here.

[tcglkn]

Originally Posted by Karat

Personally, I'm ok with the extra oomph it would have as a double spaced figure, I mean, it IS the Phoenix Force we are talking about here.

I agree with that. I was kinda making two separate points there. First that being double spaced would boost the power of that ability and I am ok with that.

Second that I was OK with just changing Phoenix Inferno to be Phoenix Fire with a 2 space range (so Phoenix Fire 2) as opposed to editing Krovax.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

I'm pretty happy with starting testing with what I have in my last post. The most concerning thing for me right now would be Emma Frost in Diamond Mode blocking all damage with 1 shield, hence why I made Phoenix Force place the OMs on it's card to prevent her from being the Avatar while in Diamond Mode. (I guess she could still be chosen as the Avatar but would be unable to take any turns which would mean you basically waste an entire round)

It doesn't concern me near as much as Cable shenanigans, but Gypsy can also do '1 shield blocks all'. That's why I mentioned her earlier. (I probably should have made a bigger deal of why I was bringing her up, though)

In general, 'indestructible Avatar' doesn't worry me as much as 'avatar that's juiced on offense'.

If Gypsy is the Avatar and you can't hurt her, you can still go after the Phoenix, which has the same Defense value and also all the OMs, and taking it out makes Gypsy kind of a non-threat. And while you're trying to take it out, you're going to be facing one attack of probably 6-7 dice a turn, plus the Phoenix Fire auto-wounds. Strong, but manageable.

If Cable is the Avatar, I think you're probably going after Cable first, but I could be swayed. Either way, you're facing two attacks of 6 a turn while you're doing it. Very likely two attacks of 8 a turn, between Flying and Sighting on Cable. Plus the auto-wounds. Not many figures are really built to stand up to that.

The range limitation the Phoenix Force puts on him and the new OM requirements on the Phoenix Force help mitigate the worst of the cheese that Avatar Cable could pull. (If it was still easy to Sage-boost him and give him bonding partners? Forget about it)

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Second that I was OK with just changing Phoenix Inferno to be Phoenix Fire with a 2 space range (so Phoenix Fire 2) as opposed to editing Krovax.

Just for the record, we'd probably still have to make card updates going the Phoenix Fire 2 route, just to Phoenix and Dark Phoenix (rather than Korvus).

I think you could maybe get away with stronger Phoenix Fire for Phoenix Force, without retcons, by doing something like this:

PHOENIX FIRE (stock version)

PHOENIX INFERNO
Whenever you roll an unblockable attack die for the Pheonix Fire special power, roll one additional unblockable attack die.

I think that route only works for upping the number of dice, though. The wording of Phoenix Fire doesn't let you elegantly up the range on it, so if that's the buff you really prefer, then that angle probably doesn't work.

[tcglkn]

I guess for almost 1000 points (potentially more after testing) I’m ok with 2 attacks of 6 or 8 in one turn. I definitely like the OM restriction on the Avatar power because it does give you a weakness to go after.

I’m not interested in bumping the Phoenix Fire power to 2 dice that feels a bit over the top. 2 space range does increase the power just enough for me while also being a detriment enough to your own placement sometimes.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

I guess for almost 1000 points (potentially more after testing) I’m ok with 2 attacks of 6 or 8 in one turn. I definitely like the OM restriction on the Avatar power because it does give you a weakness to go after.

Oh yeah, I'm for sure not trying to say it can't be balanced or anything. Just that it looks to me like the combo that's gonna drive testing and costing here.

[tcglkn]

Ok kinda read it like you were saying the combo is too strong without testing. I definitely think Gypsy and Cable will be two of the stronger Avatars to choose and would like to see that tested thoroughly.

Also my version of the sortable spreadsheet I downloaded doesn’t have Gypsy in it so I missed her when looking for issues with the Telepaths.

Really we should all be scared of Stan Lee with the Phoenix Force.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Ok kinda read it like you were saying the combo is too strong without testing. I definitely think Gypsy and Cable will be two of the stronger Avatars to choose and would like to see that tested thoroughly.

Also my version of the sortable spreadsheet I downloaded doesn’t have Gypsy in it so I missed her when looking for issues with the Telepaths.

Gotcha. Current released version of the Sortable Index is in my sig, but there's an On Deck version here. (Missing the last few designs, but mostly up-to-date)

[tcglkn]

Awesome, thanks Ronin!

Also just so everyone knows where I stand on the power level of this design, I consider the Phoenix Force very close in power level to Galactus, but would like to keep this design around 1000 points, 1100 max, as you do want a couple of Telepaths to be the Avatars.

[Tornado]

Phoenix Force Anderson!!
Lawbreakers beware.

[johnny139]

Maybe have Cosmic Inferno double up rolls for any figure that has Phoenix Fire by default? Like, the Force and Phoenix and Dark Phoenix and whoever get 2 dice, any other Avatar just gets one?

[Lazy Orang]

Jean does still feel like a viable Avatar here - not top level, perhaps, but manageable. A cheap cost, a free bonus throw attack and a bleeding irritating ability that can stop you from even moving shouldn't be underestimated.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Tornado

I know quozl rebased his. I believe it requires a weight at the base to make it stable.

It's single-spaced, doesn't need weight, and I just removed it from its original base.