Demons/ghosts and religion

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by jschild

I posted it when we were talking about it. You didn't bother to read it up then. If you really want to know, look it up.

Fine. But l;et me get this straight. You aren't going to tell me because... we have different opinions or something? No? Why then?

[TGRF]

You are referring to the wikipedia link, yes? In that case, here is something supproting my claim... in your own link.

The third category, generally referred to as crying or weeping, is increased lacrimation due to strong emotional stress, suffering, mourning, or physical pain. This practice is not restricted to negative emotions; many people cry when extremely happy. In humans, emotional tears can be accompanied by reddening of the face and sobbing—cough-like, convulsive breathing, sometimes involving spasms of the whole upper body. Tears brought about by emotions have a different chemical make up than those for lubrication; emotional tears contain more of the protein-based hormones prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, and leucine enkephalin (a natural painkiller) than basal or reflex tears. The limbic system is involved in production of basic emotional drives, such as anger, fear, etc. The limbic system, specifically the hypothalamus, also has a degree of control over the autonomic system. The parasympathetic branch of the autonomic system controls the lacrimal glands via the neurotransmitter acetylcholine through both the nicotinic and muscarinic receptors. When these receptors are activated, the lacrimal gland is stimulated to produce tears.[3]

Different chemical makeup. Protein-based Hormones. Sounds the same to me. It gets rid of all that stuff, right?

[Raudulfr Shieldcrusher]

Originally Posted by Onion Knight

Well, I believe the details of the creation portion of Genesis to be metaphorical. There are other parts, Job, Jonah, etc. which I believe to be allegorical. I do believe that there is room for literal interpretation in other parts of the Bible. (Look at me with the freedom to pick and choose what to think! Soon someone will come along to tell me that I can't do that.)

How did I get past believing that it all had to be literal? Well, by having many discussions like this with my athiest friends and my bible study group (many of whom completely disagreed). By reading books written by people who hold the belief that evolution and christianity can absolutely exist together. And by prayer.

I'd like to see the biblical literalists of this thread jump in here. (rather than debate "tears") You know who you are . . .

[Chardris1287]

Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper's Friend

This doesn't tell me how it turned out, and yes, I was the one that brought it up. I got the idea form my science text book. (yes, it is creationist) In it, it says the following, though not in these words.
There are tow kinds of tears. Those that are used to clean the eyes, and those that are used to remove harmful chemicals from the body. When we cry, our eyes release harmful chemicals (such as chemical depressants). This only happens when we cry because we are sad.
My point here is this. It is well known that almost all other animals do nto cry. Thsi is an advantage for them. Since they have all of their rage pent up inside them, they can become more, what shall I say? - 'berserkerish'? Since we release these chemicals, we don't have this advantage. Here's my point. If some humans evolved these tears, while others didn't, wouldn't it mean that those that did not cry would be more likely to wipe out those that did.
Therefore, my question is, if the release of these chemicals is of no advantage to us (at least then) how could we still have it? The entire idea makes no sense. An animal develops a genetic mutation, altering it. If the mutation is favorable, it stands to reason those with the more favorable mutation would wipe out those without it. If this development of tears was not favorable to ancient man, how come we were not wiped out?

I have to disagree with you here. Animals can't cry, so they become aggressive? I'm sorry, I don't see how a lack of tears leads to pent up aggression. The only reason an animal would ever have to become aggressive are, Territory, self-defense, food, or defense of offspring. I could tell you a sad story about a mother cat and her kitten, but I won't depress you with that. I've seen plenty of humans that go absolutely out of control with rage and at the end of their rage their eyes are blood red from all of the crying they did when they were raging. It's a chemical reaction that induced by the increase in adrenaline and hormones.

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by Chardris1287

I have to disagree with you here. Animals can't cry, so they become aggressive? I'm sorry, I don't see how a lack of tears leads to pent up aggression. The only reason an animal would ever have to become aggressive are, Territory, self-defense, food, or defense of offspring. I could tell you a sad story about a mother cat and her kitten, but I won't depress you with that. I've seen plenty of humans that go absolutely out of control with rage and at the end of their rage their eyes are blood red from all of the crying they did when they were raging. It's a chemical reaction that induced by the increase in adrenaline and hormones.

Well, it stems off of the fact that the third category of tears (see previous post) releases these chemicals. With the chemicals trapped inside of them, the animals are more aggressive. At least that's the way I understand it. Maybe I read the book wrong, but it sure makes sense to me.

[oracle92]

Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper's Friend

This doesn't tell me how it turned out, and yes, I was the one that brought it up. I got the idea form my science text book. (yes, it is creationist) In it, it says the following, though not in these words.
There are tow kinds of tears. Those that are used to clean the eyes, and those that are used to remove harmful chemicals from the body. When we cry, our eyes release harmful chemicals (such as chemical depressants). This only happens when we cry because we are sad.
My point here is this. It is well known that almost all other animals do nto cry. Thsi is an advantage for them. Since they have all of their rage pent up inside them, they can become more, what shall I say? - 'berserkerish'? Since we release these chemicals, we don't have this advantage. Here's my point. If some humans evolved these tears, while others didn't, wouldn't it mean that those that did not cry would be more likely to wipe out those that did.
Therefore, my question is, if the release of these chemicals is of no advantage to us (at least then) how could we still have it? The entire idea makes no sense. An animal develops a genetic mutation, altering it. If the mutation is favorable, it stands to reason those with the more favorable mutation would wipe out those without it. If this development of tears was not favorable to ancient man, how come we were not wiped out?

I've explained this at least twice but...

Removing chemical depressants from your body is a good thing. There is no advantage to keeping stressful hormones pent up in your body for a long time. They do not make you stronger in any way. The ability to release chemical depressants when we have too much in our system is a good thing.

(And also as I explained before, being physically stronger and/or aggressive does not necessarily improve survival, depending on the species. Humans did well because we were intelligent pack animals. We didn't kill mammoths with brute strength and aggression, we used spears and coordination. Being more aggressive is a bad trait generally for humans anyway.)

EDIT:

Oh, and just to add on, the reason animals 'can't cry' is because animals generally don't feel as much stress as humans. As I explained, the reason we cry is to remove the negative stressful hormones in our body when we have too much in our system. Animals bodies in general produce less of the stressful hormones. This is mainly due to animals being less intelligent and self aware as compared to humans. A dog for example, doesn't really think about the next day, worry about its next meal before it becomes hungry, contemplate death etc. These are things that more intelligent creatures do, thus the reason why humans feel more anxiety, and thus the reason why the mechanism to remove stressful hormones becomes useful. Since animals don't feel as much stress, a mechanism to remove them isn't as important.

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by oracle92

I've explained this at least twice but...

Removing chemical depressants from your body is a good thing. There is no advantage to keeping stressful hormones pent up in your body for a long time. They do not make you stronger in any way. The ability to release chemical depressants when we have too much in our system is a good thing.

(And also as I explained before, being physically stronger and/or aggressive does not necessarily improve survival, depending on the species. Humans did well because we were intelligent pack animals. We didn't kill mammoths with brute strength and aggression, we used spears and coordination. Being more aggressive is a bad trait generally for humans anyway.)

Okay. I get what your saying. I have one last point on this topic to discuss, however. Possessing pent up rage, it seems to me, would make you more reckless. This could result in death, but it could also result in death on the other side. In survival, this 'emergency battle energy reserve' would be a good thing to fall back on, don't you think? It could be a useful way for ancient man to get out of, say, a pack or hungry Velociraptors. (I know, humans have never seen living dinosaurs, right? Let's save that discussion for after this.)
EDIT: Let me put it this way: Aggressiveness may not have been helpful in bringing down a mammoth, but what about preventing being taken down yourself?

[Rich10]

Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper's Friend

Well, it stems off of the fact that the third category of tears (see previous post) releases these chemicals. With the chemicals trapped inside of them, the animals are more aggressive. At least that's the way I understand it. Maybe I read the book wrong, but it sure makes sense to me.

The human body has tear ducts. It doesn't have thee sets of tear ducts for different purposes. It may be possible that as hormones flood the body, they also find themselves in tears, but tears aren't the body's mechanism for eliminating hormones.

Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper's Friend

I have one last point on this topic to discuss, however. Possessing pent up rage, it seems to me, would make you more reckless. This could result in death, but it could also result in death on the other side. In survival, this 'emergency battle energy reserve' would be a good thing to fall back on, don't you think? It could be a useful way for ancient man to get out of, say, a pack or hungry Velociraptors. (I know, humans have never seen living dinosaurs, right? Let's save that discussion for after this.)
EDIT: Let me put it this way: Aggressiveness may not have been helpful in bringing down a mammoth, but what about preventing being taken down yourself?

Even if we accept the premise that tears are the body's way of releasing "aggressiveness causing chemicals", unless your mammoth hunter cried as the mammoth was charging, he would still have these "aggressiveness causing chemicals" in his body. The bigger problem is that your premise isn't correct.

Yes, you are correct in that humans have never seen living dinosaurs. It is widely accepted that birds evolved from dinosaurs, but that brings us back to evolution.

[oracle92]

Originally Posted by The Grim Reaper's Friend

Okay. I get what your saying. I have one last point on this topic to discuss, however. Possessing pent up rage, it seems to me, would make you more reckless. This could result in death, but it could also result in death on the other side. In survival, this 'emergency battle energy reserve' would be a good thing to fall back on, don't you think? It could be a useful way for ancient man to get out of, say, a pack or hungry Velociraptors. (I know, humans have never seen living dinosaurs, right? Let's save that discussion for after this.)
EDIT: Let me put it this way: Aggressiveness may not have been helpful in bringing down a mammoth, but what about preventing being taken down yourself?

Okay, let me clarify some things about stress. First off, it's a defense mechanism. It helps us survive. When a deer smells a tiger, it feels stress. When an armed robber walks into a building, people feel stress. It's our body telling us that there's a threat that needs to be dealt with.

There are multiple types of stress though. For example, humans do feel the short term 'battle rage' you're talking about. It's called adrenaline. A hormone that increases stress levels and temporarily increases strength and cognitive capabilities, This is what a human would have felt as a mammoth charged him. Once the threat is gone though, the stress goes down as well.

There are other stressful hormones though. The type of stress you feel when you have to prepare for a big test isn't the same as the type you feel when say, someone tries to mug you in an alley. The stress still helps though. If you weren't concerned about the test, you wouldn't feel motivated to do well. But excess amounts of long term stress is bad for the body. People that live stressful lives tend to live shorter and be less happy. Keeping these stressful hormones pent up doesn't make you stronger. They just make you feel...stressed. Which is never fun. The types of hormones that cause long term stress don't increase your strength. That's what we have adrenaline for, when we need that emergency strength boost. Too much long term stress can induce violence, but that's not a good thing. (E.g. college student commiting suicide).

[SuperflyTNT]

Toxic tears...natural lubricant that protects eyes....

Funny you should mention this - last night on Conan there was a comedian who referenced masturbating with his own tears in a song...

http://www.tbs.com/video/index.jsp?oid=236309

[Onion Knight]

Hahahaha!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SuperflyTNT again.

[TGRF]

Originally Posted by oracle92

Okay, let me clarify some things about stress. First off, it's a defense mechanism. It helps us survive. When a deer smells a tiger, it feels stress. When an armed robber walks into a building, people feel stress. It's our body telling us that there's a threat that needs to be dealt with.

There are multiple types of stress though. For example, humans do feel the short term 'battle rage' you're talking about. It's called adrenaline. A hormone that increases stress levels and temporarily increases strength and cognitive capabilities, This is what a human would have felt as a mammoth charged him. Once the threat is gone though, the stress goes down as well.

There are other stressful hormones though. The type of stress you feel when you have to prepare for a big test isn't the same as the type you feel when say, someone tries to mug you in an alley. The stress still helps though. If you weren't concerned about the test, you wouldn't feel motivated to do well. But excess amounts of long term stress is bad for the body. People that live stressful lives tend to live shorter and be less happy. Keeping these stressful hormones pent up doesn't make you stronger. They just make you feel...stressed. Which is never fun. The types of hormones that cause long term stress don't increase your strength. That's what we have adrenaline for, when we need that emergency strength boost. Too much long term stress can induce violence, but that's not a good thing. (E.g. college student commiting suicide).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tears#Types
This is where I get the 'third type'.
Not a good thing now, sure. Absolytely. I'm talking about 'back then'. So, from your own post, an animal with stress pent up inside can help it to defend itself better, and thus survive longer. Given that, why did humans develop this trait that gets rif of these hormones? If it was an advantage, the 'no tears' would have wiped out the 'tears', correct?