The Book of Harley Quinn (Batman Ally)

[tcglkn]

Even your bio here doesn’t make it sound like she’s part of the family. Is she regularly having dinner in the Bat-cave?

[LordVenoc]

Very aware. The fact that she has association with the family does not make her part of it. She isn't even socked with them on the level Selina is yet, so I can't fathom why you insist she's a member based solely on something like presence in a splash page. By that logic I have several characters I can apparently justify as members of character families that absolutely aren't in the context of how that character handles their family concept in story.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Even your bio here doesn’t make it sound like she’s part of the family. Is she regularly having dinner in the Bat-cave?

They don't eat dinner down there. Far too damp.

Also, I think y'all might be taking "family" a bit too literally here.

For instance, here's how one source defines it: "The Batman Family or Bat Family for short is a network of likeminded crimefighters who operate in and around Gotham, with Batman as its head."

[LordVenoc]

One, it's literally a term used in-universe.

Two, even that definition there doesn't justify Harley as a member. Because that isn't the same logic used in similar instances, such as the Superman Family, or a Green Arrow family should we design that.

So, no I do not think I'm taking it too literally. It's literally an in universe term and designation.

[IAmBatman]

I'm not up on anything DC post New 52, so I'll ultimately defer to those of y'all who are reading currently.

That said, your earlier post suggested that we should be considering how each character handles their family concept in their own stories. So, that said, I'm not sure how Superman or Green Arrow handle their "families" has anything to do with how Batman handles his.

You also say it's a term used in universe. Cool. So has it been used in universe in reference to Harley or not? One thing I know is that when you search the term "Batman Family" or "Batman Family" members, it's hard to find a modern listing of members that doesn't include Harley. So she seems to be fairly widely considered a member of the post New 52 Batman Family.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

You also say it's a term used in universe. Cool. So has it been used in universe in reference to Harley or not? One thing I know is that when you search the term "Batman Family" or "Batman Family" members, it's hard to find a modern listing of members that doesn't include Harley. So she seems to be fairly widely considered a member of the post New 52 Batman Family.

Because her book was released in the Batman Family of titles (Families was how a lot of the book groups were designated in New 52, Publishing-wise) and she was being shifted toward an anti-hero role. Nobody even said that Harley considers herself part of it, but Batman doesn't. That there should end the conversation in of itself.

[Tornado]

New 52 rules

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

The writer of Batman specifically answered that.

But DC continued to put her in the big Bat-Family splash pages and she looks to be a continuing member of the Batman team for the time being.

Personally I’d rather keep it - If she doesn’t meet someone’s personal qualification for being a member of the “family” now, shenprobably will soon. But not hugely invested either way.

Fwiw, the interview where Batman was spoken as not necessarily viewing Harley as part of the Batman Family was from 2020.

Here is an article that came out before then:

Batman calls Batman Family During Joker War (Harley Answers)

and one that came out after then:

DC Confirms Harley in Batman Family;

[IAmBatman]

Ultimately, though, like Tickle first mentioned, it's pedantic. If folks want to put Bat-Ally here now and then update it to Bat-Family in a few months or years when it's harder to disagree that she's officially part of the family, I think that's a fine approach. I'll leave it to y'all from here.

[MrNobody]

Just bought today's Detective Comics since it has HQ on the cover, and it has Harley on the "Oracle network" actively coordinating with Barbara and the rest of the Bat-Family on a mission. She's also been working with the group fairly consistently for about 2 years now.

Don't know what further evidence we need there. I definitely agree that Catwoman has more longterm history with the group, but I'm not sure even she's been tapped into contact with Oracle to any consistent degree? If we want a scene of Batman sitting her down and giving her an official badge, I’m not sure that’s ever happening. But I’m also not sure it’s happened with…Huntress, for example?

Anyways, yeah, it's a pedantic term not worth holding the design up for. There is definitely a tangible difference between Wonder Woman guest-starring in a Superman book (Superman Ally) and how DC has been handling Harley recently though. (Where she's part of the team of characters that work under Batman.)

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Don't know what further evidence we need there. I definitely agree that Catwoman has more longterm history with the group, but I'm not sure even she's been tapped into contact with Oracle to any consistent degree? If we want a scene of Batman sitting her down and giving her an official badge, I’m not sure that’s ever happening. But I’m also not sure it’s happened with…Huntress, for example?

And I would call Huntress a Bat-Ally rather than Batfamily as well.

IMO, to call someone a member of the family in the few groups that utilize the term in-universe, my criteria would be

1.) Positive working relationship with the head of said group for more than one story arc.

2.) Actively wears logo of said family head.

If 2 is not present then I'd want some combination of:

3.) Substantial history of teamwork.

4.) Inner circle to the point of knowing secret identity.

But, to be frank I'd question even calling Gordon Batfamily rather than Bat-Ally.

Working on a team under one of the heads doesn't cut it for me. Katana isn't Batfamily. Zatanna isn't Batfamily. Do I believe they'll eventually bring Harley fully into the fold? Probably. But right now, no I don't think she's part of the family even if they're blatantly moving her to that place.

[MrNobody]

I think we just have different definitions then. I'd definitely call Huntress a Bat-Family member, DC has as well, and I wouldn't blink twice at a design calling her such. I would also disclude Gordon as well though, since I think being a superheroic character seems essential to being part of the 'team.'

Anyways, updated. Still think it's the wrong choice and will feel more misleading to players (since unlike Wonder Woman, this Harley doesn't have outgoing synergies and is designed to play with a specific unit), but I don't think it's worth fighting over.