Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

I like this power, but I worry about how much it would stack with other OM removal powers. Joker and Ozy don't need to be made League Members to work with this power, and they're both passive. It would have to be a large point game, but it still has a lot of potential to be abused.

I think that it'd be a simple matter to work in an "X" Marker reference in the power to take care of that. Obviously we don't have to work out the full card right now, as we're (especially in the current conversation) looking more at big picture stuff.

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Otherwise, I really like the shape this direction is taking. Great job Sock in keeping this moving forward constructively, and thanks, Bats, for backing him up.

Thanks. It's probably not going to end up being my favorite option, but I like this option more and more the more and more I work on it. For anyone convinced that one of the three major ideas is the "right" one, I really encourage you to try to get your hands dirty working on at least one of the ideas you think is the "wrong" one before this is all said and done. A little investment can really open your mind up.

Support from the Heroes really helps and is appreciated as well, so, again, thanks.

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

One last thing, I know you guys have moved forward to a Batman 3.0, but if you really wanted to do it with a Utility glyph, you could just have the class change and/or the recruitment happen only if the figure with the glyph is a Driven Vigilante. Just a suggestion!

I think it might behoove us, for the sake of all parties considering the final results, to create an Option A with Batman 3.0 and an Option B with a Utility Glyph. That way when we're making final decisions we can cover more bases.

Originally Posted by dok

More generally speaking, I was hoping we could avoid 3.0s of figures. There's so many options for figures, and in particular there's room for 2.0s of every JL hero except Batman and Superman. I get that, at least in Batman's case, there are highly iconic things he does that aren't represented by the current versions, but I'd still rather look for options that don't require that.

If you believe Viegon, Batman 3.0 is inevitable. And I do believe Viegon. So we might just as well corner the market.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

The resurrection for Fate is directly taken from Arnim Zola, with a roll of 18 instead of 16 to account for the +2 from MM. I know Arnim is limited to Human and Clone figures, but that still encompasses the likes of the Lanterns and Captain Marvel etc. He's only 200 points and his stats and other powers aren't bad.

Luckily, this is a minor point. I'm not even sure Fate needs to be part of our presentation. He really just exists right now because: a) it's fun to workshop ideas for cards and b) he highlights some things we can do with this approach.

As far as actually implementing this system, though, he'd be lower priority than Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, or Batman/Utility Glyph. I think those three are enough to sell this idea on, especially if the Heroes are wanting us to keep all the concepts simple.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Thanks for the analysis on everything though, and the support.
@IAmBatman

Glad I can help be part of this moving in a positive direction. This is your baby, though, and it's this far thanks to your passion.

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I wouldn't mKe the chosen figure have to end engaged to the enemy figure though when moving, as it kind of loses the benefits of why I suggested it in the first place.

Yeah, I wasn't so much trying to incorporate that part of your power, as going for something slightly different (and less powerful). I was going for a "set up meat shields to screen your ranged figures" approach. It's really just brainstorming, though. There are a ton of directions we could go with a Batman 3.0 and we don't necessarily need to suss them all out (or any of them out!) before going onto the next system. We just need a general idea and some reasonable placeholder powers.

Originally Posted by dok

I don't know what's up with WW2, but it's not out yet, and if this goes in a particularly promising direction WW2 might get shifted that way.

Agreed, but it's emphasis on might. I think we need to operate as if there's no Wonder Woman 2.0 coming down and just focus on what's more in our purview. Figuring out how WW2 fits into things is where the Heroes come in.

Which means that:

Originally Posted by dok

I agree that Batman makes sense. But at least some things he could do here could be accomplished via a communicator glyph. MM2, WW2, Cyborg2, a utility glyph, and one or two more of the lesser lights seems like a whole lot to work with. The Avengers only have three designs, after all, and one of those is side support.

WW2 isn't really part of our considerations here. And, as I mentioned above, Doctor Fate is just kind of some whipped cream on top. MM2, Cyborg2, and Batman/Utility Glyph are the focus. Three designs, just like the Avengers have right now (though, to be fair, there's certainly room for expansion of that concept with them and I expect it's only a matter of time before it happens).

Originally Posted by dok

There seems to be a sentiment that "just" Martian Manhunter 2.0 and Cyborg 2.0 and maybe a utility glyph and Wonder Woman 2.0 and Fate 2.0 is not a whole lot to work with in order to create a fun, interesting Justice League synergy set. I think it's more than enough.

I'm just not seeing that sentiment anywhere. I think that's pretty much what we're working with, with the likely elimination of Wonder Woman from our direct considerations and the possible swap between the Utility Glyph and Batman 3.0 (which are really just two ways of accomplishing the same thing, each with their pros and cons).

Originally Posted by Yodaking

When I joined C3G 3 years ago I talked about adding Grim Reaper to the Hydra faction and discovered Bats had him drafted.

Minor point, but I'm pretty sure that was Hahma, not me. My drafts were about 70/30 DC to Marvel and Grim Reaper wasn't someone I had any real ideas for. I'd still love to see him, though!

Originally Posted by Yodaking

If Trollbrute does get around to doing a WW 2.0 card, he doesn't have to have any direct JL synergy on the card at all, he only needs to give her the class of Champion or Warrior and the new card can be drafted into the JL by the proposed MM 2.0 or Batman 3.0 cards.

Or, if he wants to, he could certainly give her the "League Member" class and make her a leader of the Justice League as well. But that's his call, not ours, and (I'm agreeing here) certainly not something we should hang our hopes or plans on.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Our proposed 'class' based JL mirrors the Avengers set up in some ways while still being unique. That is what people were asking for. Some wanted it to mirror the Avengers. Others wanted something different and unique to the JL. Some wanted a system that favored including the actual JL members over random heroes. Others wanted to still be able to include non-thematic JL members, particularly some thematically appropriate Marvel heroes. Some didn't want to reuse markers all over again. This proposed 'class' system hits on all those very different desires.

Yep. We're very much searching for a middle ground on this one. And when we're done with all the approaches, we'll see how they stack up. I think what we're putting together is a more than reasonable option, though.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

As far as I'm concerned it is time to move on and look at what we can accomplish with a 'marker' system. It is rather pointless to continue to refine the 'class' system to meet every whim when it might not even be the system that gets selected. All this workshop can hope to accomplish is approval for a general direction for a JL team up. Nothing we decide on here is going straight to public play testing and for anyone to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

That's very true. I think we could iron it out just a tad more, given the conversations right now, but I agree we're very close to where we could move on to the Marker discussion.

Originally Posted by Drewman-chu

Let me say beforehand that I am not trying to derail or hijack anything, but just trying to follow this thread and all ideas has been very interesting and piqued my curiosity. Please for forgive my ignorance on any points that people have already stated multiple times. Could a team synergy be accomplished not through order markers,glyphs or changing any class/personality but through just having a box or title stating Justice League, Avengers or whatever. Would this break any existing rules? Again I'm am sorry if this has been answered before.

It is off-topic, yes, but I'll allow it, just because it's not argumentative, and it's interesting at least. Basically you're suggesting giving cards "army" designations like "Utgar," etc. It's certainly been discussed before (though a long time ago), but it doesn't match the current C3G aesthetic, it would require some major revision of existing cards, and I'd be very surprised to see something that ambitious happen. Also, the Thor in the Justice League crowd would not support it. But, yeah, it certainly has an appeal!

Originally Posted by johnny139

I like the basis of class synergy but I think in general there's a bit too much adherence to the original formula of "MM = turns a bunch of guys into Justice League members = those guys get bonuses."

What does a system based on classes offer that one based on markers doesn't? I'd focus more on sweeping status effects than augmenting individual units - I think that's a key difference but I'm sure there are others.

Oye, I've found my own personal Riddler. What the heck does "sweeping status effects" mean, johnny? Can you offer an example, perhaps?

As far as I know, the vast majority of synergy = "those guys get bonuses." What other options do we have? Please, do tell.

[Arkham]

I don't think "no more than one" is even thematically fitting for the Justice League. There's multiple Champions, Warriors, Vigilantes, and Scientists etc. in the Justice League. I just feel there's a bit of "carrot on the string going on here", a pipe dream of sorts.

We can make something that works differently, that encourages actually playing the thematic characters without total limitation, and having each new design tie everything together with powers that have each other in mind...but it's starting to become apparent you're waiting for something that quite literally blows your socks off, in a game with 600+ designs, and 30+ synergies...

What other designs contain almost 100 pages of discussion? I mean, at what point are we going to start looking at what the designs are getting very right, and stop condemning them because they have 2 more classes than desired, markers vs. no markers etc. That's not directed directly to you, it's just a general statement on how this whole process is going. I'll gladly brainstorm every direction, for 100 pages each, but this whole thing is coming off like an unobtainable goal.

But I suppose we only really need to please 3 of 5, as stated, so perhaps we should just purely focus on how to get Karat, Viegon, and Trollbrute all on board. Hmmm...

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Both options do the following: "Choose X figures. Those figures are members of the Justice League. Members of the Justice League get Bonus X." One requires you to jump through more hoops, and they're denoted in different ways, but the end result is almost identical.

My immediate thought is the following:

JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA
If your army contains no more than one Champion, one Vigilante, one Warrior, [etc etc], instead of taking a turn with [this figure], you may take a turn with any Unique Hero with one of the aforementioned classes.

But I think that's really, in a sense, just a more limited version of Star-Lord's synergy base, so that specific wording/approach probably isn't worth pursuing. It's markedly different than the Avengers Markers system, though, which the "turn into League Member" approach is not, so I'm certain there' tractable design space there.

If I had a specific, perfect power in mind I'd suggest it and save us all a lot of trouble. But we're mining for platinum, here. You don't know where the good stuff is, you just know it's somewhere in the mountain, and you have to just keep picking away until you find it.

I think the reason for the class changes was less for thematic reasons and more for both competitive reasons (takes away other class synergies that you could build into the army) and mechanical reasons (gives you something to reference rather than having to say "aforementioned" all the time).

Still, we can certainly brainstorm on your thoughts here to better differentiate this from the Markers approach.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

But I suppose we only really need to please 3 of 5, as stated, so perhaps we should just purely focus on how to get Karat, Viegon, and Trollbrute all on board. Hmmm...

Pragmatically speaking, if we're just strictly adhering to the goal of getting something passed to the Public Design phase, johnny certainly could be viewed as a dead end.

There's part of me that certainly endeavors to "wow" him all the same, though. But I'm ambitious when it comes to design work.

Edit: And I already have some very interesting ideas ... give me an hour or so, Sock!

[johnny139]

I mean, you guys already had a really fresh take on the concept with the Glyph Bonus approach. You've already proven to me there are new horizons out there worth pursuing - I think that the "League Member" approach is a step backwards* from that.

*Noting that I specifically said you should be reeling it in some on the Team Card idea. Delicate balances at play.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Pragmatically speaking, if we're just strictly adhering to the goal of getting something passed to the Public Design phase, johnny certainly could be viewed as a dead end.

There's part of me that certainly endeavors to "wow" him all the same, though. But I'm ambitious when it comes to design work.

Edit: And I already have some very interesting ideas ... give me an hour or so, Sock!

Yes, I of course want everyone to be happy and "wow'd", and to gain as much support as possible. But being a realist, there is such a thing of too high of expectations, or those who are generally just not happy or satisfied with things most others are. There comes a point where it's less of an "us problem", and more of a "that person's problem". There also comes a point where one must ask himself "can I do it better", and it's quite clear in this instance nobody is confident in that, otherwise they'd be delivering the best option by far and away.

Anyways, I say we just focus more on what Viegon, Trollbrute, and Karat are looking for, because I think it's a more obtainable, realistic goal. Sir G could be within that group, but we aren't sure what his reservations are.

[laughing matter]

I think right now, the Class system has been fleshed out quite a bit. It might be best to take a break from it for now, and work on the Markers, at least so you can have some options to compare. That way the Heroes can decide which one they like best.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by johnny139

I mean, you guys already had a really fresh take on the concept with the Glyph Bonus approach. You've already proven to me there are new horizons out there worth pursuing - I think that the "League Member" approach is a step backwards* from that.

*Noting that I specifically said you should be reeling it in some on the Team Card idea. Delicate balances at play.

Which is why my idea was to do the Glyph Bonus approach in a Class System. Behold (my very, very rough first take):

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, you may do each of the following once per game:

• Add 1 to your initiative roll each round for each figure engaged with one or more Champions you control, or 2 for each Event Hero engaged with one or more Champions you control.
• When a Warrior you control destroys an enemy figure, that Warrior may take one additional turn.
• When a Vigilante you control attacks, your figures are not affected by this attack. After attacking, you may move any figures you control within 3 spaces of that Vigilante up to 3 spaces each.
• Before a figure adjacent to an Officer you control would roll defense, you may add X dice to the roll, where X is that Officer’s Defense Number.
• Before moving a Scientist or Champion you control, you may choose up to three small or medium figures you control adjacent to that Scientist or Champion. After moving that Scientist or Champion, place the chosen figures on any empty spaces adjacent to that Scientist or Champion.
• When an opponent would take temporary or permanent control of a Telepath you control or a Unique Hero you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of that Telepath, you may reveal the “X” Marker on this Army Card and that opponent’s turn immediately ends.
• Before rolling the 20-sided die for a special power on the Army Card of a Vigilante, King, Mystic, or Magician you control, add 4 to the roll.

It's quite possibly too much for one card, but it calls out specific JL classes without bothering to change their classes, and just focusing on sweeping status changes - once per game effects the way the glyph card does. If it IS too much for one card, the easy solution is to split it up among more than one.



Obviously the individual powers can be altered, etc., but I aimed for powers that would work best with the iconic Leaguers of that class, or just be general enough (initiative boost) that it didn't necessarily overly penalize or reward highly competitive figures (Thor).


No Archer or Protector on there as of now, but no saying they couldn't be added, especially if this split into two.


Anyway, it's still Class Synergy, but very different than the Markers and very different than what we've been discussing.


So what do folks think? Is there anything fruitful here?

[Arkham]

It seems like Karat and Viegon have 2 different desires on how many hubs we should have, and how the classes should be roped in.

Perhaps we could get some sort of compromise between these 2?

@Karat @Viegon

JUSTICE LEAGUE FOUNDER
At the start of the game, you may choose up to one Unique Hero you control from each of the following Classes: Champion, Vigilante, Officer, Scientist, Warrior, King. Each chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card, for the rest of the game.

If we eliminate Archer and Magician(losing Green Arrows and Zatanna), that takes us down to 6 classes.

Now would it be ok to have a 2nd hub with 3-4 classes, such as a Batman III, or Utility glyph?

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICIAN
At the start of the game, you may choose up to one Unique Hero you control from each of the following Classes: Champion, Scientist, Warrior, and Archer. Each chosen Hero's Class is League Member instead of what is listed on that Hero's Army Card, for the rest of the game. After revealing an Order Marker, you may move 1 unrevealed Order Marker from the card of a League Member you control onto any other League Member card you control.

Suggestions @Karat @Viegon ?

[Arkham]

@IAmBatman

I guess we can wait 'til we get to the discussion of that direction, but personally, as much as I like the powers and the whole idea, I'm not sure yet how we'd pull it off effectively. Right now, I'm liking what we have for this Class direction, and I like the idea of building towards the future of it with more designs. With that said, I'm hoping we can find a way to make it work effectively, and have something awesome with it as we discussed before.

As of this moment however, I'm starting to get a little burnt out/discouraged from trying so hard, and still coming up short. I'd imagine no other design or synergy has had almost 100 pages of discussion, and still not been considered "good enough". Idk. It's also a bit discouraging to know how long it's going to take regardless, for any of this to come to fruition(Firestorm playtests have completely stalled after Viegon and I jumped on them).

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Which is why my idea was to do the Glyph Bonus approach in a Class System. Behold (my very, very rough first take):

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICS
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, you may do each of the following once per game:

• Add 1 to your initiative roll each round for each figure engaged with one or more Champions you control, or 2 for each Event Hero engaged with one or more Champions you control.
• When a Warrior you control destroys an enemy figure, that Warrior may take one additional turn.
• When a Vigilante you control attacks, your figures are not affected by this attack. After attacking, you may move any figures you control within 3 spaces of that Vigilante up to 3 spaces each.
• Before a figure adjacent to an Officer you control would roll defense, you may add X dice to the roll, where X is that Officer’s Defense Number.
• Before moving a Scientist or Champion you control, you may choose up to three small or medium figures you control adjacent to that Scientist or Champion. After moving that Scientist or Champion, place the chosen figures on any empty spaces adjacent to that Scientist or Champion.
• When an opponent would take temporary or permanent control of a Telepath you control or a Unique Hero you control that is within 4 clear sight spaces of that Telepath, you may reveal the “X” Marker on this Army Card and that opponent’s turn immediately ends.
• Before rolling the 20-sided die for a special power on the Army Card of a Vigilante, King, Mystic, or Magician you control, add 4 to the roll.

It's quite possibly too much for one card, but it calls out specific JL classes without bothering to change their classes, and just focusing on sweeping status changes - once per game effects the way the glyph card does. If it IS too much for one card, the easy solution is to split it up among more than one.



Obviously the individual powers can be altered, etc., but I aimed for powers that would work best with the iconic Leaguers of that class, or just be general enough (initiative boost) that it didn't necessarily overly penalize or reward highly competitive figures (Thor).


No Archer or Protector on there as of now, but no saying they couldn't be added, especially if this split into two.


Anyway, it's still Class Synergy, but very different than the Markers and very different than what we've been discussing.


So what do folks think? Is there anything fruitful here?

Now this I find exciting. Definitely an innovative take on class-based synergy. It inspired this draft of a Batman 3.0 I just threw together riffing on the same theme:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = BATMAN
SECRET IDENTITY = BRUCE WAYNE

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = VIGILANTE/CHAMPION/STRATEGIST/???
PERSONALITY = DRIVEN

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 6

POINTS = 120

UTILITY BELT 2
At the start of the game, after Order Markers are placed and before initiative is rolled, you may place up to two Utility Equipment Glyphs of different types on this card. Batman can equip a Utility Equipment Glyph even if there are other Utility Equipment Glyphs on this card, up to a maximum of 2. Batman cannot lose these Equipment Glyphs by any means unless he is destroyed.

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICIAN
If you only have Unique Heroes in your Army, at the start of each round, you may choose one of the following:

• When attacking an adjacent figure with Champions and Warriors you control, all blanks rolled count as skulls.
• When defending against a non-adjacent attack with a Vigilante or Archer you control, one shield will block all damage.
• Officers and Scientists you control may attack with their normal attack at any point before, during, or after their move as long as they are on a space where they could end their movement.
• When rolling the 20-sided die for a Mystic or Magician you control, you may add 1 to the roll.

Those specific powers are just spitballs and you could meddle with the classes in place (up to eight, I think, would be reasonable in that context). Then you could divide them up between Cyborg and Martian Manhunter as supplementary characters. Cyborg gets Scientists and Vigilantes and ???, MM gets Champions and Officers and ???.

Regardless that's a direction I can get excited about. Specifically augmenting Justice League members without calling them out, allowing you to design powers that play to the strengths of already-built units, very modular premise that plays on the strengths of each individual Unique Hero rather than providing one-size-fits-all synergy.

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I thought that might scratch your itch, and I think it brings in the best of the marker and class systems (open-ended army building) and combines them with the best of the glyph system (powers that really call out individual leaguers - just in a slightly less specific way).

I think I'm realizing your reservation on the Class discussion to this point. We were taking Individuals and giving them all the same synergies, which is kind of taking Individuals and making them a Team. But you'd rather see a Team that lets Individuals shine as Individuals. I think this direction does it. You've got some nice specific thoughts for powers in there too! If Sock is on board and we can get another couple of Heroes into it, I think this could really be something.