Scytale's customs

[Sertorius]

Originally Posted by Scytale

That's exactly it. A major problem with any melee squad, or any squad really, is getting them all into combat position when you have multiple sets. Sending out a single group is usually detrimental, as you end up with only 1 or 2 attacks per order marker with a daisy chain of guys marching to their death. The ability to summon guys right into the fray is what gives Zombies and Dividers their greatest potency. AotD does a similar trick but it plays out very differently.

Winning with the AotD requires hitting your enemy hard and fast and plowing into his starting zone. Once they get into the fight they don't have enough defense to hold up against much of anything, but Rise from the Grave keeps the reinforcements coming without taking the turns to move them from the starting zone. If things go well you can keep up 3-4 attacks per order marker.

However, it's a balancing act, and things can turn very bad in a heartbeat. Once your opponent has destroyed all AotD on the battlefield, you can't summon any more, so determining how many to put in your start zone and how many to leave off the board is a tricky decision. Too many in the start zone and your attack falters when you can't rise more into the fray, too few and your forces are killed off before you have a chance to rise everybody.

Ohhh, I read it wrong. I thought "any number" meant you could not deploy ANY AotD at start. So you'd just have other, non AotD units (like a vamp maybe) out there. Now I see that's not how it works at all.

Well you can always cannibalize the card's mechanics for a different unit, or find some new sculpts. Reapers has some pretty cool skellies...

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Well you can always cannibalize the card's mechanics for a different unit, or find some new sculpts. Reapers has some pretty cool skellies...

Yeah, I could, but I doubt I ever will. I made the Army of the Dead because I felt Heroscape really needed a skeleton unit; with C3V filling that roll I don't really want to make another. And Rise from the Grave fits so well with skeletons, it almost seems wrong to give that power to anything else .

[Sertorius]

Quick note for fixing the problem at the bottom of cards in MSE (such as with Sledge). After the last word, just keep hitting the spacebar until the text aligns correctly and then export. Sometimes the jpg will come out looking different, but it usually works.

~Serto

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Quick note for fixing the problem at the bottom of cards in MSE (such as with Sledge). After the last word, just keep hitting the spacebar until the text aligns correctly and then export. Sometimes the jpg will come out looking different, but it usually works.

Sledge looks fine to me. The text follows the outline on some official cards too. I have used the space trick on some cards (actually I usually use newline) for aestestics. Though it tends to auto-chop blanks off the end. Adding a period (.) after the newlines forces it to keep the extra blanks without making much of a difference on the cards.

[Sertorius]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Sledge looks fine to me. The text follows the outline on some official cards too. I have used the space trick on some cards (actually I usually use newline) for aestestics. Though it tends to auto-chop blanks off the end. Adding a period (.) after the newlines forces it to keep the extra blanks without making much of a difference on the cards.

Oh I didn't realize some official cards do that tapered indent thing. I thought it was just a MSE glitch.

[Scytale]

The next set is up today -- a goblin common hero and a hobgoblin army. I apologize for the poor quality of some of the cards; I really need to borrow a nice camera again to take pictures of the hobgoblin figures.

I always strive to make units that play differently than any existing units, but the hobgoblins went beyond my expectations. Utilizing Tactical Positioning to simultaneously maximize Phalanx Soldier, Chain of Command, and height advantage all while staying within Gramornym's command range is like solving a tactical puzzle.

[Sertorius]

Gramornym
- To be honest, I think he's too expensive. We haven't really had this argument re: Reaper Kings vs Kato vs Kurrok (yet), but if you think about it, you lose his turn when you exercise his bonding option. His synergy ability with the (hob)goblins makes it a little more tricky, though. I think you could easily make him 100 -- I'd pay 100 for OM flexibility.
- otherwise: cool sculpt!

Marguul Soldiers
- again, another squad with 3 differentiated figures. I'm jealous.
- I think they are too cheap! 3 of them in a squad, they bond with Gramornym, and they are essentially 4/3 most of the time when it counts if you are careful with your heroes. That's 5 attack dice from height and they have the powerful movement ability to be able to get that height when things get crowded.

- Heavies are 17.5pts per figures before Legacy, but we all agree they were are too cheap that way
- maybe the Deepwyrm Drow is a better comparison -- 70 pts for 3 and they don't bond with anything
- hmm I was hoping to find better comparisons, but I fail.

Hobgoblin Impaler
- he has Implacable (err. Brutal Strike ) with 3 attack dice, moves 6, 4 defense, and can avoid being destroyed 45% of the time. Pretty brutal! He could possibly be 10 pts more expensive, in other words. Would you rather have him, or a Fire Elemental/Wyrmling? I had the Zhentarim Officer at 60 points with Implacable and you complained about him being too strong? :P I jest.

- What if Hobgoblin Resilience was a roll per wound dealt? Just a thought.

Goblin Wolf Rider
- awesome sculpt, and Dismount is brilliant. I want to steal it for my mounted Zhent guy (I'll trade you for "Mounted")
- the way First Assault is worded now, the Rider can start engaged to another figure, then pivot around to attack a second with First Assault. Is that cool?
- Dismount: the only squad eligible for this right now are the Cutters, right? are there more Goblin squads in the pipe?

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Gramornym
- To be honest, I think he's too expensive. We haven't really had this argument re: Reaper Kings vs Kato vs Kurrok (yet), but if you think about it, you lose his turn when you exercise his bonding option. His synergy ability with the (hob)goblins makes it a little more tricky, though. I think you could easily make him 100 -- I'd pay 100 for OM flexibility.
- otherwise: cool sculpt!

We've started this argument but haven't finished it. I think order marker flexibility for squads is incredibly powerful. The Heroscape designers seemed to feel the same making Kato 200pts. I put a high cost on him accordingly. The double common hero activation is nice too.

Still, you may be right. This is one that needs more playtesting.

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Marguul Soldiers
- I think they are too cheap! 3 of them in a squad, they bond with Gramornym, and they are essentially 4/3 most of the time when it counts if you are careful with your heroes. That's 5 attack dice from height and they have the powerful movement ability to be able to get that height when things get crowded.

Take a second look: they don't have bonding. Which means you need to take a turn or two to position your heroes before using the squad, and then hope they are still alive when the troops move in. Or move the troops in first without a hero and hope they survive long enough for the hero to catch up.

Not bonding with a hero makes a huge difference, even with order marker flexibility from Gramornym. Yes, they can be a very solid 4/4, but it's surprisingly hard to get that to happen.

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Hobgoblin Impaler
- he has Implacable (err. Brutal Strike ) with 3 attack dice, moves 6, 4 defense, and can avoid being destroyed 45% of the time. Pretty brutal! He could possibly be 10 pts more expensive, in other words. Would you rather have him, or a Fire Elemental/Wyrmling? I had the Zhentarim Officer at 60 points with Implacable and you complained about him being too strong? :P I jest.

I wonder about this guy too. I would usually rather have a wyrmling at 30pts, for the flying and useful ranged special attacks (not even considering bonding). This guy has no bonding (unlike wyrmlings or even the dumutef), but he does have good synergies. I could probably be convinced to up his price, but I'm not fully convinced yet.

The Zhentarim Officer had bonding with his troops, plus Zhentarim Tactics. Implacable is pretty amazing with those things.

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Goblin Wolf Rider
- the way First Assault is worded now, the Rider can start engaged to another figure, then pivot around to attack a second with First Assault. Is that cool?
- Dismount: the only squad eligible for this right now are the Cutters, right? are there more Goblin squads in the pipe?

First Assault is already used by Valguard, I just reused the power. I don't see a problem with a pivot assault.

Cutters are the only small Goblin squad for Dismount. I don't plan to make any more. I don't really think it would be a good idea to, actually; those little buggers are so tiny that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart if you had a mix of units. I resisted the temptation to make a non-mounted goblin hero for this reason.

[Sertorius]

Originally Posted by Scytale

We've started this argument but haven't finished it. I think order marker flexibility for squads is incredibly powerful. The Heroscape designers seemed to feel the same making Kato 200pts. I put a high cost on him accordingly. The double common hero activation is nice too.

Still, you may be right. This is one that needs more playtesting.

Well, Kato is overpriced to begin with (imho), but his power is definitely more powerful -- he gives OM flexibility to some very powerful unique squads, and allows 8 (admittedly-ineffective) common squad figures to move at once. That said, your Gramornym is significantly cheaper than Kato already, so you may be right. And Gramornym is a little more useful than Reaper King, since he has better stats and a synergy. We might be closer to the proper ratio than we know.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Take a second look: they don't have bonding. Which means you need to take a turn or two to position your heroes before using the squad, and then hope they are still alive when the troops move in. Or move the troops in first without a hero and hope they survive long enough for the hero to catch up.

Not bonding with a hero makes a huge difference, even with order marker flexibility from Gramornym. Yes, they can be a very solid 4/4, but it's surprisingly hard to get that to happen.

ok, bonding was a bad word. OM freedom, let's say. But you are right, you are talking about 1 attack or 3 attacks per turn, not 4-5 like the Heavies or Dwarves because it isn't true bonding. When I look back at some of our own units that hover around 3/3 (Ibixians, Zhentarim Soldiers, Greenspawn Defenders, etc), they all are slightly more expensive, but all have true bonding. A better comparison are the Crypt Reapers or the Equicephs, both of which are 20 points more and have the exact same psuedo-bonding. Crypt Reapers we already know are powerful, but Marguul vs Equicephs might be a good case. I've always found the Equiceph to be pretty strong, even at 80 points...we need to put Reaper King and a bunch of Equicephs vs Marguul.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I wonder about this guy too. I would usually rather have a wyrmling at 30pts, for the flying and useful ranged special attacks (not even considering bonding). This guy has no bonding (unlike wyrmlings or even the dumutef), but he does have good synergies. I could probably be convinced to up his price, but I'm not fully convinced yet.

The Zhentarim Officer had bonding with his troops, plus Zhentarim Tactics. Implacable is pretty amazing with those things.

Try enough again with the bonding. The big benefit of this guy is that his hero status helps the Marguul, and he's tough enough to actually hang around in the thick of it and give them the bonus while it counts, especially with Phalanx Solder. This guy next to a Marguul must be a real pain.

Originally Posted by Scytale

First Assault is already used by Valguard, I just reused the power. I don't see a problem with a pivot assault.

Cutters are the only small Goblin squad for Dismount. I don't plan to make any more. I don't really think it would be a good idea to, actually; those little buggers are so tiny that you wouldn't be able to tell them apart if you had a mix of units. I resisted the temptation to make a non-mounted goblin hero for this reason.

I always wanted to see a warg unit with a double attack, but phrased as "Wolf Bite" and with slightly different parameters than the rider's attack. If you ever feel like reworking this card, I request this here and now.

[spiteofthedice]

+Rep.

Too much to look through right now, Scytale, but I will definitely be borrowing some of these ideas. You're a good designer.

If you never noticed Kullah in my thread, have a look. Apparently, I forgot to put him on the front page, but I think he'd fit your hobgoblin faction.

And I think they'd fit him.

And I want them. Possibly more than I want the corresponding amount of money.

Interesting...

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Well, Kato is overpriced to begin with (imho), but his power is definitely more powerful -- he gives OM flexibility to some very powerful unique squads, and allows 8 (admittedly-ineffective) common squad figures to move at once. That said, your Gramornym is significantly cheaper than Kato already, so you may be right. And Gramornym is a little more useful than Reaper King, since he has better stats and a synergy. We might be closer to the proper ratio than we know.

Yeah, pricing these leader units is definitely tough. The only official model we have to go on is Kato, who doesn't just give flexibility but also an unprecedented 8-figure activation. There are others, namely Ulginesh and Kurrock, who are also quite costly in points, but then they too do much more than simple order marker flexibility.

Originally Posted by Sertorius

But you are right, you are talking about 1 attack or 3 attacks per turn, not 4-5 like the Heavies or Dwarves because it isn't true bonding. When I look back at some of our own units that hover around 3/3 (Ibixians, Zhentarim Soldiers, Greenspawn Defenders, etc), they all are slightly more expensive, but all have true bonding. A better comparison are the Crypt Reapers or the Equicephs, both of which are 20 points more and have the exact same psuedo-bonding. Crypt Reapers we already know are powerful, but Marguul vs Equicephs might be a good case. I've always found the Equiceph to be pretty strong, even at 80 points...we need to put Reaper King and a bunch of Equicephs vs Marguul.

Ignoring the order marker freedom, the Marguuls are a squad of 3 with 5/1/3/3 with a movement power. With close proximity and adjacency, they can become 5/1/4/4.

A good comparison to them is the Romans. Naturally they are a squad of 4 with 4/1/3/2 with bonding. With adjacency (using Marcus, of course) they can become 5/1/4/4 as well, and have one more figure and an extra attack via bonding. And they're 10pts cheaper. No special movement power though. Comparatively the Marguuls don't look so good.

Another comparison would be the Horned Skull Brutes, a squad of 3 with a natural 5/1/4/4 with no adjacency requirements and a useful movement power. They also have a handy survival power. But they are 15pts more than the Marguuls.

Honestly, costing the Marguuls is tough. One the one hand, they are a 3/3 melee squad. On the other hand, they have good boosting potential and some nice synergies (they're fun to play with Shurrak!).

Originally Posted by Sertorius

Try enough again with the bonding. The big benefit of this guy [Impaler] is that his hero status helps the Marguul, and he's tough enough to actually hang around in the thick of it and give them the bonus while it counts, especially with Phalanx Solder. This guy next to a Marguul must be a real pain.

Even if I have to raise his cost, his survivability is a necessity for the hobgoblin army to work. His fighting strength is fairly important too, to make it worth activating two of him from time to time.

When I last playtested him he had 3 defense, and my cousin and I felt it wasn't enough. Hobgoblin Resilience sounds almost as awesome as Isamu's Vanish, but it's actually not even close. The big difference is that Vanish gives movement when it works. That keeps him from suffering more than one or two attacks per round. Impalers, on the other hand, tend to get swarmed. That d20 doesn't hold out forever -- usually not even more than a couple attacks.

Originally Posted by Sertorius

I always wanted to see a warg unit with a double attack, but phrased as "Wolf Bite" and with slightly different parameters than the rider's attack. If you ever feel like reworking this card, I request this here and now.

Heh, that was the design I originally had in my head. But to be useful this guy needed a role to fill, one that wasn't already filled by Cutters or Brutes. The role I picked was a high speed hard hit, with the bonus of leaving a Cutter in place when killed. First Assault fits that role best.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by spiteofthedice

Too much to look through right now, Scytale, but I will definitely be borrowing some of these ideas. You're a good designer.

Wow, thanks Spite! Always nice to hear positive feedback, all the more so when it's from a designer of your calibre. (Ong-Ruk-Sa looks amazing!)

Originally Posted by spiteofthedice

If you never noticed Kullah in my thread, have a look. Apparently, I forgot to put him on the front page, but I think he'd fit your hobgoblin faction.

Sadly I must admit I did not see him as I did not read the whole thread. But heck yeah! He's a great match for the Marguul army! Honestly I was thinking about making a fitting figure from that sculpt. At first I thought he should be Militaristic to fit in better, but that might be too good. I may just have to print that one out and give him a try.