The Book of Winter Soldier (Team-Up)

[Yodaking]

The Solider issue seems to exist with or without this card being added to the mix. I wouldn't try to depower a faction by nerfing a new card. I'm seriously considering just making all Joe cards I do be Commandos or some other class and avoiding the Solider Tax altogether.

[Lazy Orang]

Bit late for that... And, honestly, this is the place where they naturally would fit among the rest of the world of Heroscape...
My recommendation is to give the Joes strong internal synergies on one of their cards from a chap who really wants OM1. That way, you make 'classic Joe team or Cap' more of a fun, equally viable 'either/or' choice with interlocking synergy between the two options, rather than just have them straight up stacking.

[japes]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I think it's just worth taking a pause to talk about it mostly. Not yet convinced it exists. Generally agree with not nerfing Winter Soldier quite yet, since if there is a "problem" with the faction he doesn't even really seem to be it.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

The Solider issue seems to exist with or without this card being added to the mix. I wouldn't try to depower a faction by nerfing a new card.

Agreed...what will happen if you nerf Winter Soldier is ... no one plays Winter Soldier and the Soldiers are still the same.

So IF there is an issue with the faction it needs to be fixed elsewhere. Frankly my concern is that if a faction is going to be costed based off a figure that I'd guess 90% of us never heard of before his design was started it's an issue. Having a faction based around someone like Captain America is not nearly as bad but still should be thought about.

If I can't justify the points to play a Winter Soldier and Sam army without having to take the other guys then it's a fail.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Arkham

Fwiw, I think there’s a good chance some of you are jumping the gun on making the Soldier faction out to be better than it really is.

I haven’t looked over the results thoroughly, but a bunch of relatively inexperienced testers coming with wins isn’t something that strikes me as a concern. Simply winning most games does not mean it’s the tested unit’s doing either. The opposing army makeup, luck, how close the final results were(5-1 when the games could have gone either way, rather than blowouts, etc.), and strategy or lack there of, are all important to consider before sounding the alarm bell.

I think we could slow down a bit here. So far testing has him coming in at, what, about 240 points? Calculator had him at 215? Seems like a reasonable margin of error. Certainly not an unusual difference between calculator projection and final price point.

I think this tax stuff is a bit hasty at the moment.

[Arkham]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Winter Soldier

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 1
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Winter Soldier(235), Sgt. Rock(175), Cap(240), Angel(90) (740)
vs.
Luke Cage(190), Iron Fist(260), Moon Knight(150), Spider-Girl(140) (740)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
3 wounds(2 are excess) on Moon Knight, kills him. (+2 from Cap and Sgt. Rock, + Cybernetic Southpaw blank)
1 wound on Luke Cage. (+2 from Cap and Sgt. Rock)
1 wound on Luke Cage (Cybernetic Southpaw blank)
3 wounds(1 is excess) on Luke Cage(botch), kills him. (Cybernetic Southpaw blank)
1 wound on Iron Fist. (Cybernetic Southpaw blank)
1 wound on Iron Fist. (Cybernetic Southpaw blank)

Military Duo:
Chooses Cap.

Got Your Six:
1 wound on Luke Cage
Miss
Miss
Miss

Notes:
R1: Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Cap with CD, but misses on Winter Soldier. Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Cap with CD, but misses on Winter Soldier. Cage puts 2 wounds on Sgt. Rock. Moon Knight puts 1 wound on Cap with CD, but misses on Sgt. Rock. Cage puts 1 wound on Sgt. Rock.

R2: Cap puts 4 wounds on Moon Knight. Cage puts a wound on Sgt. Rock. Cap puts a wound on Cage. Cage kills Sgt. Rock. Cage kills Cap.

R3: Fist heals a wound off Cage.

R4: Fist puts 2 wounds on Winter Soldier. Fist puts a wound on Winter Soldier then heals a wound. Fist kills Winter Soldier.

R5: Fist puts 2 wounds on Angel, then heals a wound. Fist puts a wound on Angel. Fist kills Angel.


Iron Fist and Spider-Girl unwounded.

Soldiers struggled here a bit. The Fighters didn't even play the match as ideally as they could have, such as Spider-Girl not getting in the mix to disrupt passively, and Cage got separated after Moon Knight fell, thus I've Got Your Back bonus turn was shut off 'til Fist took a turn to get close enough. All to say, it just felt like the Soldiers were fighting a slight uphill battle.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Conflict Chernobyl
Units:
Winter Soldier(230), Cap(240), Ms. Marvel(350), Bane(190), Angel(90) (1100)
vs.
Star-Lord(250), Nebula(240), Gamora(300), She-Hulk(310) (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
3 wounds on Star-Lord, kills him. (+1 from Cap)
1 wound on Gamora. (+1 from Cap)
4 wounds on She-Hulk. (+2 from Cap and Bane + Cybernetic Southpaw)
1 wound on She-Hulk, kills her. (+1 from Cap + Cybernetic Southpaw)
4 wounds on Nebula. (+1 from Cap)

Military Duo:
Chooses Cap.

Got Your Six:
Miss
1 wound on Gamora.

Notes:
R1: Cap puts 2 wounds on Star-Lord. Winter Soldier kills Star-Lord. Gamora puts 3 wounds on Bane. Ms. Marvel puts 3 wounds on Gamora.

R2: Gamora puts a wound on Bane. Cap puts a wound on Gamora. Ms. Marvel puts a wound on She-Hulk. She-Hulk kills Bane.

R3: Cap puts a wound on Nebula. Nebula puts 2 wounds on Cap with VS. Ms. Marvel kills Nebula.


Cap with 3/5 wounds(2 life). Ms. Marvel, Winter Soldier, and Angel unwounded.

Strong win for Winter Soldier's team, but they were rolling hot out of the gate and throughout most of the match. Lots of big skull attacks, while the likes of Gamora and She-Hulk were rolling poor defensively. Star-Lord and Nebula were just ate up. So not the most even match luck wise.

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY:
Solid design, and a great Cap buddy, which is nice to see. Makes running Cap + Ms. Marvel a bit more cohesive since Winter Soldier can make that first OM on Cap not feel like a tax against Ms. Marvel's turn efficiency. So that's cool to see. Similarly when teaming Cap with Sgt. Rock. 230 feels right points wise, 240 if you want to play it safe.

[Arch-vile]

Thanks Ark! I’m cool either way on 230 or 240. I’ll read through the tests and make a proposal later today, pre-yeas are welcome in the meantime.

[IAmBatman]

Pre-yea on whichever of those numbers looks best to you.

[japes]

Pre YEA as well. Thanks @Arkham

[Arch-vile]

Tests linked in the OP. Let's play it safe and send him on at 240.

Proposal for Final Editing.

[tcglkn]

Yea

[MrNobody]

Yea

[japes]

This passes by the way