The Book of Red Tornado (II)

[tcglkn]

Yea

[IAmBatman]

Getting about 300-320 for him on the calculator, so I think your estimated range looks pretty solid. Ideally we'd avoid 300 exactly so he's not at the same slot as current Red Tornado.

Feels weird to give him an always +1 to his defense that's not just rolled into his stats, but I suppose it's how Invisible Woman does things, so there's a precedent, and if he were depowered, he wouldn't get that bonus anymore, just whatever he got out of his armor/ability to doge, so I've talked myself into it after waffling a bit.

yea

[Arkham]

If people would prefer, to help mitigate the oddness of it, another option could be:

WIND SHIELD
Red Tornado and friendly figures within 3 spaces of him are not affected by Glyphs of Weather: Tornado, never take leaving engagement attacks, and may add 1 to their Defense number for each revealed Order Marker on this card.

It’s less of an “always on” approach, and the variable number makes it feel more warranted on why it’s not baked into his stats.

Ultimately fine with it as-is though, as I don’t feel it’s all that different than an auto-shield or Invisible Woman etc.

[IAmBatman]

I do think that'd be interesting for gameplay. If you stack Order Markers on him, though, and pair him with folks like Green Arrow and Black Canary that can get more out of his turns, that's probably on the higher end of his strength. I don't mind that, by the way, as I think it further separates him from Red Tornado (I), I just think I'd start with 320 as more of his floor at that point.

[Arkham]

Strength wise, tying it to revealed Order Markers of course means it’s not as passive, and forces your hand a bit on having to use him to gain more of a benefit. It has a lower floor(0 boost before taking a turn with him), and a higher ceiling(+3 after 3 turns with him).

On rounds they lose initiative, he and his army are vulnerable. No boost on turn 1. Enemy turn 2 they’re only at the +1 he would have had in the current version. Enemy turn 3 they’re at a +2 etc.

On rounds they win initiative they can get ahead of the current version by opponent’s turn 2.

All of this is assuming you’re giving him all your OMs rather than a Hawkwoman, Superman, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Fate etc. So nets out to be of similar value, no more than maybe a 10 point difference, IMO.

Though now that I think of it, I just remembered Zatanna’s Danger into Doves potential to lower skulls rolled + Wonder Woman’s static defense boost...might make him adding to defense a bit redundant? Perhaps a different approach? Guardian Angel or Avenging Angel maybe?

[IAmBatman]

Hawkgirl (Kendra) already covers the Avenging Angel theme pretty well for the faction. And Superman (JL) has enough Guardian Angel DNA for me. Passive defensive boost feels on theme for him, IMO. I like keeping it there but don't mind the idea that you have to use it actively to make it work well.

[Arkham]

Here’s what that looks like if we went that way:

????
After Red Tornado or any small or medium figure you control within 3 clear sight spaces of Red Tornado defends against a normal attack from an enemy figure, you may immediately move Red Tornado. After moving, you may choose a figure Red Tornado passed over. Roll one unblockable attack die against the chosen figure, or place it on any empty space adjacent to Red Tornado. Red Tornado and a figure placed by ???? ignore all leaving engagement attacks.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hawkgirl (Kendra) already covers the Avenging Angel theme pretty well for the faction. And Superman (JL) has enough Guardian Angel DNA for me. Passive defensive boost feels on theme for him, IMO. I like keeping it there but don't mind the idea that you have to use it actively to make it work well.

Kendra is pretty minor on the Avenging Angel, as her only way to do it defensively is if Evasive Flying allows for it, which isn’t often.

Superman is more jump in to defend or swift carry rather than Guardian Angel, IMO.

I’m more concerned at how many are creating a difficult wall for the opponent to break through.

[Arch-vile]

Another thought is tying it to unrevealed Order Markers for further synergy with Hawkwoman. That does make him more passive, though, so I'm not sure if I prefer that.

If you're switching to a Guardian/Avenging Angel approach, maybe instead of moving Red Tornado when a nearby ally is attacked, let him move a Tornado Glyph.

Just tossing out ideas here, I'm okay with whatever direction. Edit - That last power is pretty solid too.

[IAmBatman]

I was thinking it might be cool to move a tornado reactively too.

That said, I think in terms of negative play experience when facing him, I think I'd find him moving around and rolling unblockables against me every time I attack more obnoxious than him providing a +1 defense boost.

But I'm ultimately open to a lot of directions here, depending on what calls to you most strongly.

[Arkham]

A wall can get pretty brutal, as we’ve seen with Blob + Jean + Graviton etc.

What concerns me is the varying defensive combinations of Zatanna + Wonder Woman + Plastic Man + Red Tornado + Fate + Superman etc. At some point it’s going to get rather tough to find the cracks. The moving/unblockable could also prove nasty, but as a player, I generally find going up against a wall where I’m seemingly unable to break through to be a less than ideal experience.

I could see limiting the trigger to be if the defending figure takes a wound, so it’s not as bad as Angel etc.

???
After Red Tornado or a figure you control within 3 clear sight spaces of Red Tornado receives one or more wounds from an enemy figure’s normal attack, you may immediately move Red Tornado. After moving, you may choose a figure Red Tornado passed over. Roll one unblockable attack die against the chosen figure, or place it on any empty space adjacent to Red Tornado. Red Tornado and any figure placed by ???? ignore all leaving engagement attacks.

This would help keep it in check a bit more. The power itself should pair well with the Tornado Glyphs and his F5 Fury. The former he can always drop them into. The latter he would be able to get them engaged with him for his attacks. Also some fun stick them to Plastic Man shenanigans.

[Arkham]

Something a bit different:

VORTEX
At the end of the round, place each figure or glyph within 10 spaces of Red Tornado on an empty space up to 2 spaces closer to Red Tornado. Roll the 20-sided die once for each figure engaged with Red Tornado. If you roll 10 or higher, that figure receives a wound. Red Tornado, and any figures moved by Vortex, never take any leaving engagement attacks.

I’d probably drop the removal of the Tornados at the end of the round bit from his first power, and instead put the immunity to them there.

This approach allows you to start pulling in figures potentially hanging back in the start zone, friend or foe. It also allows you to get the likes of Plastic Man, Aquaman, Red Tornado, or Tornado glyphs surrounded.

Always hoping to do something a bit new/unique, I think I’m gonna propose we move forward with that. Updated the SP.

I re-propose a vote to move to Initial Playtesting.

[Lord Pyre]

That's a cool power. Curious to see it's effect in an actual game. It's a "must" power as written, so it could be just as big a pain as it is a boon.

Yea