Marvelous Map Contest Round 1F

[caps]

Originally Posted by caps

Snare is really interesting!

25 Years Later is pretty, but it is a little too much "two hill" for me, and the highest points can easily see the glyphs.

Water Treatment Facility is pretty neat, but it feels like the glyphs should be closer out to the edges.

There's a lot to like about Shaolin Monastery, but I have a few issues: the jungle bush probably shouldn't cover the glyphs, one start zone supports lateral movement while the other doesn't (which is minor but could be an issue in some instances), and the infamous "two hills" show up in the middle.

I think Snare is probably the best one here.

I voted only for Snare. Each of the other maps could have gotten a vote, but the issues I mentioned before were just enough to turn me off. Additionally, 25 Years Later has pod-spots just outside the start zone on the right side, which I think is also an issue.

The author of 25 Years Later is revising the map and I look forward to seeing where that goes (but it has no bearing on this contest).

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by caps

Each of the other maps could have gotten a vote, but the issues I mentioned before were just enough to turn me off.

I obviously have nothing to lose or gain by your vote so this is purely cartography talk:

I'll say again I appreciate the jungle bush feedback, and while the issue is not fixed in the actual submission (regardless of old vs. updated), it is fixed now. Just as Leaf_It is working on his map, I've been working on mine, and so I'm sure many other cartographers across the contest are doing the same.

Not sure if you've seen the talk about using duplicate ruins over at WoS but I would recommend to anyone that worries about playing on an RotV map that has asymmetries caused by the ruins to just use two of the same ruin if they have them (if not, no worries, the asymmetries on most maps rarely cause enough issues to actually be an issue). Regardless of that though, I think how you present the issue of the ruin differences isn't the correct issue. Starting off I don't think it matters if I can climb across my SZ (I'll simply move forward and around the ruin - it's faster). The issue actually occurs late game with a final unit back up into that area; on one big ruin side the figure can only be attacked by one adjacent space while on the small ruin side the figure can be attacked by two adjacent spaces. Again, probably not the biggest of deals in 99% of games but if you're super worried about it and can use two of the same ruin, go for it. This map even probably cares less than others which ruin you duplicate.

Finally, and frankly, I think your idea of what the two-hills problem is is a bit whacky. It seems by your definition that almost every one of the WoS maps has a two hill problem. This is simply not the case. Fossil has a two-hill problem. Burial Marsh has a two-hill problem. A lot of older BoV maps have two-hill problems. Let me be clear: This is not a map with a two-hill problem.

Heck, I’ll be honest, I think A Nightmare on Elm Street has more of a two-hill problem than this map will ever have. But as this contest shows, it is possible I know nothing. Take with you what resonates and leave what doesn't. Good day!

[caps]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

The issue actually occurs late game with a final unit back up into that area; on one big ruin side the figure can only be attacked by one adjacent space while on the small ruin side the figure can be attacked by two adjacent spaces. Again, probably not the biggest of deals in 99% of games but if you're super worried about it and can use two of the same ruin, go for it. This map even probably cares less than others which ruin you duplicate.

This is the issue I was referring to, yes. While I agree with you 100% when it comes to casual use, for a tournament match I'd prefer not to see this issue in the build instructions.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Finally, and frankly, I think your idea of what the two-hills problem is is a bit whacky. It seems by your definition that almost every one of the WoS maps has a two hill problem. This is simply not the case. Fossil has a two-hill problem. Burial Marsh has a two-hill problem. A lot of older BoV maps have two-hill problems. Let me be clear: This is not a map with a two-hill problem.

Sure, a "two hill problem" should probably be reserved for describing a map where there are two clumps of high ground with a large and/or difficult-to-traverse span of terrain between them. For this contest I've been using the term to describe two separate areas of high ground without considering the terrain in between. I'm sure there are some maps I've given that moniker to that don't deserve it.

As I said in my post in the main thread, I'm not really a Heroscape cartography expert and was mostly just hoping to kickstart discussion.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Heck, I’ll be honest, I think A Nightmare on Elm Street has more of a two-hill problem than this map will ever have.

Now there I disagree with you. Nightmare looks like it supports lateral movement pretty well, and an army that wants to move from one side to the other can probably do it with LoS cover for most of the way.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by caps

This is the issue I was referring to, yes. While I agree with you 100% when it comes to casual use, for a tournament match I'd prefer not to see this issue in the build instructions.

Being such a small issue, I’m going to leave the build instructions up that encourage the most amounts of players to use the map (which appears to not be many anyways). Players are welcome to switch out whatever ruins they see fit. If a map with such a low amount of votes in a contest is one day lucky enough to be considered by ScapeCon or WoS, I’ll leave it up to those wise folks to collaborate with me which ruin, if either, should be duplicated (same was done with Percolator). And it is in the ScapeCon or WoS threads that the build instructions can reflect the absolute most competitive way to enjoy the map.

Originally Posted by caps

Now there I disagree with you. Nightmare looks like it supports lateral movement pretty well, and an army that wants to move from one side to the other can probably do it with LoS cover for most of the way.

I don’t disagree that you can safely approach the other hill, but real two-hill problems come down to “why”.

“Why would I leave my hill to trek across the map to approach your hill?”

“Why don’t you come to my hill instead?”

Two ranged armies with hills close enough will just shoot each other.

A ranged army facing a melee army with two hills close enough will force the melee army to approach or get shot anyways. Preferably the hills here are large enough that approaching melee can take over some of the ranged army’s hill and attack from even ground.

Two melee armies with hills close enough AND LARGE ENOUGH will see someone threaten to take over some of the others' hill.

Bad Moon Rising is probably the best example of a good two hill problem. I don’t think Nightmare does that so well.