The Workbook of Boromir

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Reserved for workbook

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Reserved for tracking

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Moving some of the recent Boromir discussion over here

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Most of my ideas for Boromir unfortunately would not work well with him as a Human Champion, in my opinion. We would have to balance him for the Knights of Weston and he would be overpriced without them.


Anyhow, here are my ideas.


ONE SHIELD DEFENSE
(see Crixus's card for text)


COMBAT CHALLENGE
(see Tandros Kreel's card for text)






You could use just these two powers and have a pretty thematic Boromir in my opinion.


I've also been playing with a HORN OF GONDOR power, but I'm wondering if it would be better as a scenario effect. Anyhow, here are the two versions I've come up with


HORN OF GONDOR
After Boromir receives one or more wounds from an opponent's figure, each player may move up to 2 figures up to 4 spaces each. Each figure moved with the Horn of Gondor must be able to move within 5 clear sight spaces of Boromir.


This would be very problematic with Knights of Weston. They're already very mobile with Sir Gilbert. This would make them rat-like on top of that!



Here's the alternate version


HORN OF GONDOR
After revealing an order marker on Boromir, if he has received one or more wounds from an oppponent, you may use Horn of Gondor. If you do, each player may move up to 2 figures up to 4 spaces each. Each figure moved with the Horn of Gondor must be able to move within 5 clear sight spaces of Boromir.


You could take out the order marker bit, and I'm not sure if it should happen before or after moving. But if you take out the order marker bit then it becomes problematic with Knights of Weston.



The wording in italics is kinda gross, but it's the "standard" way to word this kind of thing and ties in to a bunch of FAQs about how these powers are supposed to work; without the FAQs the corner cases become an unwieldy mess.


Maybe you can see why these seem like they might be best left as either a Treasure Glyph or a scenario effect.

Originally Posted by Ninja Status

I like Legolas and Gimli a lot. For Boromir I was envisioning a sort of cheerleader power that would activate when he builds up wounds. Something like..

Courage of Gondor
If Boromir has at least 3 wound markers on his army card, each friendly figure adjacent to Boromir may add 1 to their attack and defense value.

It needs work, but if we were to incorporate something like this I’d make his life around 6ish? Maybe give him an average/below average base defense to start?

Originally Posted by capsocrates

This is a cool idea. We might want to pair it with one of the powers that incentivizes or forces Boromir to be wounded by the enemy (either he takes wounds instead of adjacent figures or something like Combat Challenge).

This is a cool idea!

Originally Posted by boromir96

I’d like to see 2 iterations of Boromir. A FotR one with a Horn of Gondor power, and a class of Protector maybe? And a Champion of Osgiliath version that bonds with KoW and Macdirks.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

2 versions of Boromir would be cool, I made a draft of him a while ago that involved him shielding other units from wounds and being a high life figure

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

I really like Boromir with combat challenge - I think whenever an existing power fits thematically this well we should use it.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to having multiple versions of some figures (Gandalf comes to mind, 'Gandalf the Grey' & 'Gandalf the White') as that does follow classic scape (Drake, Raelin) but I think it's important that it doesn't happen to too many figures and I'm a bit hesitant to use one of those spots on Boromir, since he doesn't change as fundamentally as other characters like Gandalf. I do think Boromir bonding with KoW (& McDirks is fine too) is important.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

First of all, we don't have to have a one size fits all approach. We can use glyphs for some things and not for others. What I'll say about the idea is that it can give us a way to keep figures balanced for standard/tournament-style play while still having a leg up for scenarios where the fellowship together might otherwise be at a disadvantage against squad scape armies like hordes of orcs.

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With that said, I mostly just want to point out the tension at play here. If we make a figure like Boromir so that it is balanced and fun to play with/against for bonding with Knights of Weston, it will be more difficult to make him feel right as a "standalone" hero when he is used with the Fellowship. There may be somewhat of a happy medium but it will require sacrifices from both ends.

Concretely, powers that let him move other figures voluntarily step into the design space of Sir Gilbert (which is boring), and powers that let him move other figures in response to being wounded will make the knights *even better* at board control than they already are (and with Sir Gilbert they are some of the best in the business). An example of sacrifice like I mentioned might be a high point cost or nerfing the effect of the power (only once per game, or only one figure, or only 1-2 spaces, etc) but that will make him less useful to the fellowship.

In this context, since we can represent Boromir thematically *without* a horn of gondor power (and in the books he only used it once anyway) hopefully the reason I suggested that it be a scenario thing or treasure glyph makes more sense.

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

I like horn of Gondor as a one-time use treasure glyph. Yes, anyone could use it then not just Boromir, but thats part of 'summoning' them all to Valhalla.

As for the fellowship, I don't think people would play the entire fellowship as an army all that often. I'm fine with making some fellowship members interconnected (like Legolas & Gimli) and others (like Boromir) more squad dependent. Then Boromir is like Alastair - best with knights but not useless without (just over priced in points).

Originally Posted by boromir96

I don’t think it’s very practical to expect to play the fellowship as it’s own army. While it’s a fun concept for it to work effectively the heroes would have to be priced pretty low and then would not reflect their power level correctly I think.

As far as the Horn power not working with KoW I think there’s two easy solutions to that.

1. The two versions of Boromir I suggested earlier. A fellowship version with the Horn, and a Champion of Gondor version.

2. The Horn can only move unique heroes.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I think the three of us are on the same page about the fellowship not working that well as an army in a tournament format, but I would like to keep some soft synergy between them so they are fun to play that way at least.

Option 1 is on the table of course (right now everything is on the table).


Option 2 has possibly a different problem of adding other champions to the board control mix in a KoW army. Not sure it's better than the best KoW armies but if you want to get your local tournament director to allow them, they will be wary of anything that *looks* like it will make the knights better.


Anyway, just some food for thought.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

Here is an idea of how I've been playing with Boromir so far. Just some brainstorming from me, not saying I'm right. My idea was that even if its on his card, once the horn has been blown it's been blown. This frees it up from being limited to certain figures and its not broken as a one-time "rally" effect.

Edit: I don't really know how plain text is best formatted but here it is Cap

BOROMIR OF GONDOR

Human
Unique Hero
Champion
Valiant
Medium 5

Life 7
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 3
Price 125

Shield of Gondor
If a friendly figure that is adjacent to Boromir would receive at least one wound, you may choose to place all or none of those wounds on Boromir instead.

Horn of Gondor
Once per game, after moving and before attacking, you may choose 3 friendly figures. Move the chosen figures up to 5 spaces each.

Resolve of Men
Abilities that would instantly destroy Boromir will instead deal 3 wounds.

Originally Posted by White Knight

I like it.

Originally Posted by boromir96

I really like the majority of that card, however I think the third power wording might need some fine tuning and thought put into it. I can’t think of an established comparison for a power like that.

I also think a Valiant figure that follows Einar might be a theme break. I’m trying to think of any other Valiant characters that don’t follow Jandar, Ullar or Aquilla.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I don't think the third power fits the theme of the character, personally. I would drop it altogether.

I think sticking to two powers is a good general guideline. It will help us keep things simpler, also.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

Sure, the third power can definitely go. Doesnt need to be there. Maybe shift to disciplined on the personality as well?

Originally Posted by boromir96

I feel like Valiant, or Heroic, or Ambitious, or Relentless all might fit better than Disciplined. Not sure though. I think he may fit better with Jandar than Einar.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I see the argument for Einar but I agree that Jandar feels like a better fit than Einar.

I would prefer to avoid Valiant. I'll be happy if there's never another figure with the Valiant personality, haha. Heroic and Ambitious work for me. I feel like there's a word that captures him slightly better than any of these, but I can't figure out what it is yet.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

Ok, here is where we are at. 2 powers, personality is up in the air and I've thrown suggestions in the slot for now. Is he worth 125 or does he fall cheaper with 2 powers?

[Splash]

I'd like to see something that reflects how he succumbed to the ring. I feel it's an important part of his character. Plus giving him some sort of debuff could bring his points down a bit. Maybe call it Noble Intentions or something like that and there's some negative impact on Boromir or figures in your army if they are carrying treasure glyphs.

Sorry, not sure if i should be commenting yet before we decide who's doing what and cement everything a little more.

[Shiftrex]

I personally try to stay away from negative powers, but if its limited to treasure glyphs that would turn up mostly in scenarios I could get on board with that.

[Archie97]

Here's my first draft of Boromir, let me know what you think. Stats are not particularly thought out, more just trying to get ability ideas across.

Boromir
Unique Hero
Warrior/Champion?
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(Sculpt dependant)

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3

Combat challenge
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to Boromir attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack Boromir.
Fallen fellow
Whilst this army card has 4 or more wounds on it, other friendly figures within 4 clear sight spaces of Boromir roll one additional attack dice, move 2 additional spaces, and Boromir cannot move.
Succumb
Boromir rolls leaving engagement strikes against ringbearers you control. If Boromir inflicts one or more wounds this way, he immediately receives 1 wound.

I'll give a quick rundown of the thinking behind each ability. Combat challenge is there to have him play as your tank, and set up his middle ability. Fallen Fellow (I'm hoping someone has a better name in mind) is trying to reflect his death, I'll admit I've never read the books, so I'm going off how it happens in the movie, where he keeps fighting even after he goes down, and rallies Merry, Pippin, and Aragorn in doing so.
Last ability is trying to reflect him falling to the Ring's power, and trying stop Frodo getting away. Also fuels Fallen Fellow. I think it could be cool to have a few abilities that reference Ringbearer as a class, and then a treasure glyph for the ring that give whoever carries it the class of ringbearer, I think that would give us an interesting way to show the influence of the ring on different characters.

[Shiftrex]

I'm not a fan of combat challenge over Shield of Gondor. Boromir was throwing himself in front of Merry and Pippin. If he hadnt took those arrows (movie wise) then they would have destroyed our small friends. I think the other version communicates self sacrifice which is how Boromir always struck me.

Plus, Shield of Gondor protects from ranged attacks as well where Combat challenge does not.

I do like succumb! That's very thematic, could play well in a scenario and the negative aspect will probably never cone up in a prebuilt army. Could even expand it to all figures holding a treasure glyph.

[caps]

Combat Challenge accomplishes the same theme as Shield of Gondor, IMO. It doesn't protect against ranged attacks BUT the orcs weren't trying to kill the hobbits; just capture them. They shot Boromir with arrows not because he was in the way, but because he was preventing the orcs from capturing the hobbits.

On the note of Shield of Gondor, C3V's new Millerson has the right wording (although we could cut some of the restrictions).


Grit could also be a neat power to re-use for Boromir. But not if we do a Shield of Gondor power. I wouldn't want Boromir to be "Millerson; the melee version."

I also would prefer that Shield of Gondor has some restrictions. Maybe only for small figures or something? I don't want him to be a free hit point battery for any figure in an army (Raelin says hi). That sounds obnoxious and possibly problematic for us to balance him where we want.

[Shiftrex]

Grit is a cool power, I'd be ok with that.

Point still stands that if we use Combat challenge that you can shoot past Boromir and if we use the power from the new figure you could melee past him. Which seems anti-thematic? Maybe I'm the only one that feels that way.

Restricting a protection power to small figures would definitely make it more niche and allow us to put strength elsewhere, like in Grit or some other ability. Reserves his wound soaking basically to hobbits, im not familiar with any "small" figures that I'd want to soak wounds for in classic but my knowledge on this qualifier is limited.

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All the dwarves in classic are small.

To keep powers simple we will need to be okay with getting theme in the right ballpark. Combat Challenge is a power that lets him protect adjacent figures. So is Shield of Gondor. That's the point.

We could change the restrictions on Honor Among Thieves so it also affects adjacent attacks. It was mostly just the wording on the second half I wanted to point out, not the restrictions. The C3V's editors spent a while getting the wording just right.

[Shiftrex]

Makes sense to me! I didnt realize dwarves counted as small. That opens up what he can do a bit. Changing the restrictions on Honor among thieves is probably the best route to go.

Honestly, since you pointed out the thematic difference. The idea of him tanking ranged shots can just be built into his stats. I got a different meaning that wasnt there from the book/movie lol. No reason for him to directly interfere with ranged.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Splash

I'd like to see something that reflects how he succumbed to the ring. I feel it's an important part of his character. Plus giving him some sort of debuff could bring his points down a bit. Maybe call it Noble Intentions or something like that and there's some negative impact on Boromir or figures in your army if they are carrying treasure glyphs.

I like this idea a lot - something like this:
Mortal Willpower
If any figure in your army is holding a treasure glyph, before taking a turn with Boromir you must roll a d20. If you roll a 15 or higher, choose an opponent. That opponent will now control Boromir for the remainder of your turn, but will not be able to view any unrevealed order markers on
his card. At the end of that turn, control of Boromir returns to you. All order markers and figures that were on Boromir's Army Card will stay on his army card.