Agent Carr > Cyprien Esenwein? o__O

[clancampbell]

Pound for pound, I'd have to say cyprien is way better than Carr. If you want to say Carr vs. Cyprien, 1 on 1, then I might go with Carr. Really though, in that senario its 50/50. Besides, when does that ever happen. Cyprien is a killing machine, capable of taking out other armies all by himself, can the same be said for Carr? Now, don't get me wrong, I like Carr, but he's no Cyprien. I've only ever been involved in one game where Carr and cyprien went head to head. Carr came out on the losing end, granted it was because my brother rolled a 20 for chilling touch, but hey.

So, one on one Carr ~ Cyprien.

Overall Cyprien, much > Carr.

[playwitfyr]

Originally Posted by clancampbell

Pound for pound, I'd have to say cyprien is way better than Carr. If you want to say Carr vs. Cyprien, 1 on 1, then I might go with Carr. Really though, in that senario its 50/50. Besides, when does that ever happen. Cyprien is a killing machine, capable of taking out other armies all by himself, can the same be said for Carr? Now, don't get me wrong, I like Carr, but he's no Cyprien. I've only ever been involved in one game where Carr and cyprien went head to head. Carr came out on the losing end, granted it was because my brother rolled a 20 for chilling touch, but hey.

So, one on one Carr ~ Cyprien.

Overall Cyprien, much > Carr.

Although we are just talking one on one, I totally agree!

[Gomolka]

Originally Posted by playwitfyr

Although we are just talking one on one, I totally agree!

The thread title doesn't necessarily agree, though.
Agent Carr: A Great Cyprien Counter would work much better.

[wk4c]

+1 Gomolka. Sorry I didn't title it that way. But yeah, defenitly, he's a great counter, ah?

[playwitfyr]

Originally Posted by Gomolka

The thread title doesn't necessarily agree, though.
Agent Carr: A Great Cyprien Counter would work much better.

I think the title perfectly agrees with the topic:
Agent Carr > Cyprien Esenwein? o__O

It looks to me that this is a question.
Is Agent Carr greater than Cyprien Essenwein?
So I think we have been having reasonable discussions about the different circumstances in which Carr would beat Cyprien.
If the title were: Does Carr beat Cyprien when going one on one?, then maybe the title wouldn't agree with us discussing ways in which to use Cyprien to beat Carr or vice versa.

But because wk4c has chosen this title, I think almost all the talk has been very relevant and I think we shouldn't worry about a little title constraining our discussion.

So everyone bring on their thoughts:
Is

Agent Carr > Cyprien Esenwein?

To me, its the flip of a coin to decide who will walk out of it.

[killercactus]

I would say Cyprien should take down Carr most of the time, but he's also 50 points more expensive, and about twice Carr's cost with his ball and chain.

With Carr's 5 move, Cyprien should get the first strike every time (I'm not counting Carr's ranged pea shooter). Carr will probably get one retailiation swing, but is probably dead if Cyprien uses his next marker to attack Carr. Of course, all theoryscape.

So, I guess for 100 points, Carr is just OK against Cyprien. He has to assume that Cyprien will come to him, which might not even happen. Give him Theracus and things might get interesting. But for 100 points, if I want nothing more than a Cyprien counter, I'm staring straight at X17. That bot eats Cyprien for breakfast, spits out his fangs, then steps on them.

[scottishlad5]

Well just like all heroes and units and heroscape they all have good counters, in your case being Agent Carr, I agree with this I too have been destroyed while playing Cyprien to Carr. Also I bet it also has to do with the guy whos playing Carr, I mean if its my brother, sometimes its like Jotun vs a nagrub. I might try like other people have said heavy defense units. I hope I helped.

[CheddarLimbo]

I still maintain that Cyprien is better than 50-50 in a one on one scenario because he has two opportunities to inflict damage, one of which cannot be defended against.

Is anyone good with statistics? We could probably figure this out once and for all using Sysiphus' tables, but I'm a doofus with math.

[Agent of Vydar]

I believe if Cyprien did not have his chilling touch, Agent Carr would dominate him most of the time. The thing is you really don't want to get anybody engaged with him because of that.

[killercactus]

You could probably use mathguy's matchup calculator to figure it out. But, very quickly, from the top of my head I can tell you this, assuming Cyprien strikes first and Sonya is not on the board, no pea shooter from Carr, and no attack or defense enhancers:

Cyprien will average .17 wounds every attack with his normal attack (1.5 average skulls vs 1.33 average shields)

Cyprien will average .95 wounds everytime he uses Chilling Touch (average of the probabilities of each Chilling Touch wound roll, I think).

Agent Carr will average 1.67 wounds every attack with Sword of Reckoning (3 skulls vs. 1.33 shields)

So, it will take Cyprien 4 turns to kill Carr on average (4 life /(.17+.95) = 3.571 -> round up to 4)

It will take Carr 4 turns to kill Cyprien on average (6 life / 1.67 = 3.59 -> round up to 4).

Comparing the final numbers, Carr actually can kill Cyprien slightly faster on average that Cyprien can kill Carr (3.59 attacks > 3.57 attacks), but just barely. Assuming Cyprien gets that first strike though, he gets the nod. Throw in Sonya and he wrecks Carr.

On average.

[robbdaman]

Statistics like that are of course pointless though as when using a luck based component like dice, "average" never really happens.

That said it is all based on luck either way. Carr can take Cyprien down in one shot if he hits with all his skulls and Cyprien fails to block with any shields. Just like Cyprien can chilling touch Carr to death with a great d20 roll. It's all luck.

R~

[killercactus]

Originally Posted by robbdaman

Statistics like that are of course pointless though as when using a luck based component like dice, "average" never really happens.

That said it is all based on luck either way. Carr can take Cyprien down in one shot if he hits with all his skulls and Cyprien fails to block with any shields. Just like Cyprien can chilling touch Carr to death with a great d20 roll. It's all luck.

R~

<<Insert Obi-Wan picture here - I can't figure out how to upload it>>

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

Yes, some of it is luck, but knowing what your chances are of coming out on top lets you take calculated risks instead of blind ones. "Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."