Common Squad Limit or Cap for Competitive Play

[1/2ltfightr]

I do not support any type of restricted list. So far the designers have been good about developing a counter to various tactics/units. As well as revamping older units with new ones. If one unit is too dominating I have faith that the designers will counter it somehow with new units. As for squadscape starting zones are the best way in my opinion to limit common squads.

[ParaGoomba Slayer]

Originally Posted by rdhight

I see no need to balance the game between heroes and squads. If squads predominate, I don't see that as a problem to be solved. If heroes predominate, I don't see that as a problem either. The fact that the game is called "Heroscape" means absolutely nothing to me.

If people really want to put more heroes into tournament armies, why is Marvelscape often banned? Every superhero isn't going to hit the table regularly in 500-point tournament games, but some will (Venom, Cap). Want to swing the balance back? Instead of adding a new restriction on squads, release an old one on heroes.

/sign

[Eirikr]

Ok so the more I think of my 12 figs limit the more I like it. It really works for limiting squads like the 4th Mass and the Reavers without taking away their value. It also lets you use the swarming squads like drones and zombies without overly penalizing them either.

I think if a limit were to be set this would be the way to go. Any thoughts?

[Revdyer]

I still don't see the need for limits. Although it may be frustrating to face a team with 20 rats swarming at you, that is part of the game as designed, and I'm happy with the design. I guess I'm in the "it ain't broke" school of thought. (Obviously, I may well be biased, since I used a competitive army with four squads of 4th Massachusetts Line in it; so take what I've said cum granu salis.)

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Eirikr

Ok so the more I think of my 12 figs limit the more I like it. It really works for limiting squads like the 4th Mass and the Reavers without taking away their value. It also lets you use the swarming squads like drones and zombies without overly penalizing them either.

I think if a limit were to be set this would be the way to go. Any thoughts?

What's the upside of doing this? Okay, people won't be able to play 4th Mass x4 or rats x4. So what? How does that make the game better? Yeah, some people don't like facing an army that uses massed commons. Some people also don't like facing Morsbane. Some don't like all-hero armies. Some don't like seeing Krav, Raelin, or Q9. If you're going to take away mega-swarms because some people would prefer not to have to play against them, what about all the other things some people don't like?

[Jexik]

I'm mostly in the 'don't interfere with the game' camp. I suggested restricting 4th Mass and Deathreavers, simply because I think that'd be preferable to a blanket reduction on common squads. If having an army with 6x 4th Mass is a balance issue, deal with that without eliminating the opportunity to play 6x Venoc Vipers or Aubrien Archers. Having a 24 hex limit (or lower) is the best way to make extreme less powerful and desired.

I usually like to say that I see tons of variety despite the grab for power units, but at the last tournament I went to, I played against the exact same army (and lost) three times. The thing is, no one had played an army similar to that at the two tournaments I went to before that, so I think simple changes to point values, maps, and glyph selection are enough to spice the game up. Also, that army that I lost to three times only had 3 sets of 4th Mass, (and 2x KoW and Gilbert), so a flat reduction in squad usage probably would have made that army even more popular than it already was.

And as I said about the 'no more than 2 common squad' rule, I'm not sure if cutting out the B+ and above units will make the armies that much more varied. Cut out the Orcs, AE, 4th Mass, etc, and maybe Aubriens+WoA+Raelin (SotM) and Tagawa Samurai+Sam Archers+Raelin become the new "good" armies, and everyone will play those instead. It also makes the tournament less open to word of mouth inclusion. "Sorry sir, that army includes Theracus, who is a B+: find something new. Sgt Drake Alexander (SotM)? Overpowered!"

[guido]

Originally Posted by rdhight

I see no need to balance the game between heroes and squads. If squads predominate, I don't see that as a problem to be solved. If heroes predominate, I don't see that as a problem either. The fact that the game is called "Heroscape" means absolutely nothing to me.

If people really want to put more heroes into tournament armies, why is Marvelscape often banned? Every superhero isn't going to hit the table regularly in 500-point tournament games, but some will (Venom, Cap). Want to swing the balance back? Instead of adding a new restriction on squads, release an old one on heroes.

I couldn't have said it better myself. This discussion seems a little silly. Common squads are meant to be on the field in vast numbers, that's why they are common. If you don't like to play against swarming armies, draft Braxus and Sullivan, but don't tell me that I can't draft more that 3x a certain squad just because you don't know how to counter it. And why does everyone hate on the marvel figures anyway?

Originally Posted by rdhight

What's the upside of doing this? Okay, people won't be able to play 4th Mass x4 or rats x4. So what? How does that make the game better? Yeah, some people don't like facing an army that uses massed commons. Some people also don't like facing Morsbane. Some don't like all-hero armies. Some don't like seeing Krav, Raelin, or Q9. If you're going to take away mega-swarms because some people would prefer not to have to play against them, what about all the other things some people don't like?

Exactly, at some point it gets a little too much like Gerrymandering. Higher the point values and/or lower the starting hexes to encourage the balance of heroes and squads, but don't cap the squad size.

[AmishBurrito]

Originally Posted by guido

I couldn't have said it better myself. This discussion seems a little silly. Common squads are meant to be on the field in vast numbers, that's why they are common. If you don't like to play against swarming armies, draft Braxus and Sullivan, but don't tell me that I can't draft more that 3x a certain squad just because you don't know how to counter it. And why does everyone hate on the marvel figures anyway?

I agree. When marvel first came out I viewed it as merely another expansion pack to Heroscape. The designers stated that it was compatible. I played with Marvel a few times, and then after seeing so many tournaments with "no Marvel" restrictions, it has lessened their appeal to me.

I know that they do not have to be tourney allowed in order to be fun to play, and the game is all about fun, but it takes away the fun for me to play with figures and determine strategies, etc, that I know I won't be able to use in more competitive gameplay (Which is the reason I do not play with customs either). I guess I am the type of player who wants to test armies and run statistics, and determine the strongest synergies, and that is the most fun for me.

Erase the hate! Marvel are Heroscape people too!

[Eirikr]

Originally Posted by rdhight

What's the upside of doing this? Okay, people won't be able to play 4th Mass x4 or rats x4. So what? How does that make the game better? Yeah, some people don't like facing an army that uses massed commons. Some people also don't like facing Morsbane. Some don't like all-hero armies. Some don't like seeing Krav, Raelin, or Q9. If you're going to take away mega-swarms because some people would prefer not to have to play against them, what about all the other things some people don't like?

Obviously the upside of this is to limit massive numbers of the same, powerhouse common squad, 'people won't be able to play 4th Mass x4 or rats x4'. This is what is being discussed here, by folks who clearly feel that this would make the game better. Many people feel that fixing the startzones at or around 24 makes the game better too but that is just a house rule as well.

I don't feel a need to limit squads either but in this discussion indeviduals explored and asked for ideas for ways to limit squads that made sense. A number of people expressed a desire to find a simple way to limit squads that would work for a variety of squads with different needs. I suggested this as a way of doing so. Seems like that's pretty simple. Nobody seems to have a problem with limiting the starting zone as a means of limiting squads and yet the effect is virtually the same, and has nothing to do with the game design either.

Again, I feel no need to limit the number of squads allowed in an army. I also like having a fairly standard startzone size and like the number 24 as a way of limiting the number of figs in a given army thus giving a little more weight to uniques. I was just offering up a suggestion to those who wished to further limit particular squads.

[tokomi]

I personally think that it is good to add some variety to the game/tournament scene by having restrictions on team builds. This breaks things up so that you do not see the same cheese teams plus or minus a hero/squad because it wins.

I learned from the tournament that players will not look to fill hexes with additional squads but play bigger heroes when faced with a squad restriction. The August tourney will not have a squad restriction.

Besides, how much cheese can you fit in 24 hexes?

[Tyrnix]

I don't think limits accomplish what they set out to do. If you don't want people playing a squad because, 'it's too powerful', then, if it really is that game altering, banning it would be the far more appropriate thing to do. No squad, I think, has reached that level of power; not even the rats or 4th mass. Banning should be reserved for extremely rare cases where the designers admittedly botched up; either they missed something in development and it drastically altered the way the unit was played or they created a unit too close to the edge and it went over the top of the high end of the power curve. As annoying as the rats are to play against and as good as the 4th mass are it's ok to have some squads like this. After all, how do you know how far from the bottom the top is if you don't have something sitting at the top?

[Revdyer]

I've just discovered that your can paste stuff into the rep comments bar (everyone else younger knew this already, I know.) But I gave positive rep to Tyrnix for this sentence: "After all, how do you know how far from the bottom the top is if you don't have something sitting at the top?"