The Book of Batman (Bruce Wayne) (Justice League)

[Arkham]

With a range of 5, his base stats point wise will add up to 135. Meaning his specials will come in around 115.

Using Oracle's points as comparison, her base stats add up to 50 points, which means her specials add up to 60. Contingency Plan and Initiative boost likely take up ~30 of those points, so Batman's will be similar. That brings him up to ~165.

Psylocke's base stats bring her up to 105, which means her Psychic Knife, MMA, and Superstrength add up to 145. Karate Kid's stats bring him to 60, 90 after adding flying. That means his Super Karate, MMA, and Mental Shield add up to 140. Shang-Chi is at 75 after stats, meaning his Phantom Walk, Master of Kung Fu, and MMA add up to 155. Gamora is at 130 after stats, which means MMA, Godslayer, Healing, and Superstrength adds up to 180.

I'd say it's safe to value MMA at around 65 points. Which will put Batman up to 230. This would mean his marker burn, including the max of 4 per game, each burn lessening his initiative, and it being a +1 for most figures, would come in around 20-30 points. I'd say 30 points is a fair topping point, bringing Batman III in at a likely 260.

[johnny139]

I dislike MMA here but, if we're adding Range, I'm good with it.

Strong dislike for the classes listed as synergy here. Archer? Lots of Archers hang out with Batman, close link to Vigilante faction. Scientist? Batman's a scientist, I buy it. King and Magician? There is no thematic reason for those classes to be listed. It's pure mechanical benefit.

Batman does not like magic. He doesn't use magic. He's skeptical of magic. He teams up with Zatanna because she's a friend, not because she's a magician. But I can forgive this one, since "stage magic" and "Batman tricks" have a connection. One purely mechanical but thematically justifiable choice I can live with.

But King? Batman is not a king. He barely knows any kings. He barely hangs out with Aquaman, out only JL King, and doesn't do so out of any respect for the station. Why does Batman want to hang out with a king? Why not also a queen? I mean, maybe Bruce Wayne k ows some kings, but they're not going to be his Batman contacts. I can't give this one my blessing with King on that list.

Tactical Strategist is a mess. It's three powers squished into one. It'd move the initiative boost to the first power, and possibly just split Contingency Plan into its own power, if we have room.

Also, I'm on board with a class change. I, personally, would go with Champion. He IS a champion of justice, the weak, the downtrodden. It lets him fit into either MM's or Supes' synergy webs. And it lets you run with a purely Champion Trinity, which is cool.

[IAmBatman]

I'd be OK with a class change to Champion as well, fwiw. But Vigilante doesn't bother me either, and means that Superman III's Trinity text feels more relevant.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by johnny139

But King? Batman is not a king. He barely knows any kings. He barely hangs out with Aquaman, out only JL King, and doesn't do so out of any respect for the station. Why does Batman want to hang out with a king? Why not also a queen? I mean, maybe Bruce Wayne k ows some kings, but they're not going to be his Batman contacts. I can't give this one my blessing with King on that list.

I was under the impression that "The Brave and the Bold" was the theme here. Batman teams up with a very wide array of heroes. Be it Scientists, Vigilantes, Archers, Magicians, Adventurers, Kings, Officers, Crime Fighters, Champions etc. That's the whole theme behind it, those 4 options are all very different from each other. Which is thematic to the grouping and the character. It's not just mechanical.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'd be OK with a class change to Champion as well, fwiw. But Vigilante doesn't bother me either, and means that Superman III's Trinity text feels more relevant.

It'd still work in the sense that it still covers Batman I and II, just as Warrior is only there in the case that Wonder Woman II is listed as Warrior.

[IAmBatman]

Agreed. I think all of our positions on it are already clear, though, so I'm not going to spend any more time debating it unless a counter offer is proposed. I'd vote for the SP as is or with Viegon's suggested tweaks. That's where I'm at.

[Karat]

I'm with Johnny that this shoukd feel like JLA Bats

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Karat

I'm with Johnny that this shoukd feel like JLA Bats

Since when are the Green Arrows, Red Arrow, Aquaman, Zatanna, Atom, Flash, and Firestorm not JLA? I guess I'm just not seeing how this is unthematic here.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Karat

I'm with Johnny that this shoukd feel like JLA Bats

The bolded - typo aside - is not being disputed. What's being disputed is how people define what feels like Justice League. To me, Batman working with Aquaman does.

Also, the power should also feel like The Brave and the Bold. Which Batman working with Aquaman does.

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

I was under the impression that "The Brave and the Bold" was the theme here. Batman teams up with a very wide array of heroes. Be it Scientists, Vigilantes, Archers, Magicians, Adventurers, Kings, Officers, Crime Fighters, Champions etc. That's the whole theme behind it, those 4 options are all very different from each other. Which is thematic to the grouping and the character. It's not just mechanical.

If we're going with a pure "Brave and the Bold" theme, then any limitation would be unthematic. If the theme is "Batman teams up with a bunch of random dudes all the time," why should those random dudes specifically be Archers and Kings?

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Agreed. I think all of our positions on it are already clear, though, so I'm not going to spend any more time debating it unless a counter offer is proposed. I'd vote for the SP as is or with Viegon's suggested tweaks. That's where I'm at.

I would suggest cutting King and leaving it at three classes, or replacing it with one of the following:

Champion (The World's Finest team up, long history of close relationships with Champions)
Vigilantes (Long history, again, thought not necessarily in a JL context)
Titan/Sidekick/Interloper (Tangentially JL related, strongly Batman related)
Fighter/Crime Fighter* (Definitely very Batman)

The first two are already heavily represented in JL synergy, the latter five are probably a stretch. So I really don't see the issue with either A) just dropping him down to three classes or B) adding a fourth that's essentially trinket text.

Personally, I think Crime Fighter would be my choice for a new class. It adds in Blue Beetle (who is just as appropriate for Batman as Aquaman, if not more so), is more palatable on its own (Batman fights crime, hangs out with Crime Fighters). The only issue is that it brings in the Spider-Men, who would benefit strongly from the d20 boost and are naturally not who you'd want.

So my preference is probably: cut King > replace with Crime Fighter > replace with another option which rings truer thematically.

[Karat]

Originally Posted by johnny139

If we're going with a pure "Brave and the Bold" theme, then any limitation would be unthematic. If the theme is "Batman teams up with a bunch of random dudes all the time," why should those random dudes specifically be Archers and Kings?

I would suggest cutting King and leaving it at three classes, or replacing it with one of the following:

Champion (The World's Finest team up, long history of close relationships with Champions)
Vigilantes (Long history, again, thought not necessarily in a JL context)
Titan/Sidekick/Interloper (Tangentially JL related, strongly Batman related)
Fighter/Crime Fighter* (Definitely very Batman)

The first two are already heavily represented in JL synergy, the latter five are probably a stretch. So I really don't see the issue with either A) just dropping him down to three classes or B) adding a fourth that's essentially trinket text.

Personally, I think Crime Fighter would be my choice for a new class. It adds in Blue Beetle (who is just as appropriate for Batman as Aquaman, if not more so), is more palatable on its own (Batman fights crime, hangs out with Crime Fighters). The only issue is that it brings in the Spider-Men, who would benefit strongly from the d20 boost and are naturally not who you'd want.

So my preference is probably: cut King > replace with Crime Fighter > replace with another option which rings truer thematically.

[Arkham]

I'm not absolutely opposed to cutting King. However, it really sucks that Aquaman I will then have absolutely no tie-in to the Justice League. Batman III, the Brave and the Bold theme as well as the d20 boost were very much setup with him and Green Arrow in mind.

As for replacing it with something else, I'd much rather go with Officer if we're going to pick anything else. It fits the Brave and the Bold theme to include a Lantern, and it brings in Hal who would greatly benefit from the d20 boost, without bringing in anyone who might be problematic such as Spider-Man.

That said, I'd still be incredibly bummed if Aquaman I wasn't in the fold. I'm not a fan of Aquaman II, as I feel Aquaman I outshines him in just about every way, for 100 points cheaper, and the group could use a healer. If only we could just change Aquaman I's class to Champion or Warrior and call it a day. :P

[Karat]

I like Officer here much better than King. Maybe add King on Cyborg? It feels more appropriate there to me