"Tough" question

[allskulls]

Make the chart, Cornpuff...your logic is logical.

[sigmazero13]

The chart may be helpful, however it could just as easily be argued that by "cannot roll any defense dice" it would essentially cause the "roll defense phase" to be SKIPPED ENTIRELY (which is how I believe it was intended to be).

I recall this very question being ruled on once upon a time, but I don't know if it got transferred to this site.

[K/H_Addict]

Originally Posted by CornPuff

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

lemme get this straight. If i am using saylind, and want to summon my 7 damage Braxas adjacent to kelda, and saylind is already in position to do this (ie: one hex in between the two kyries), i have to move saylind at least one space in any direction to legally summon? Can i move one space forward, and then spend a second point to move back to the space i just left?


I have always played that you can choose not to move, which basically said you moved forward 1 space and then back to where you started.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by K/H_Addict

lemme get this straight. If i am using saylind, and want to summon my 7 damage Braxas adjacent to kelda, and saylind is already in position to do this (ie: one hex in between the two kyries), i have to move saylind at least one space in any direction to legally summon? Can i move one space forward, and then spend a second point to move back to the space i just left?


I have always played that you can choose not to move, which basically said you moved forward 1 space and then back to where you started.

No! No! No!

Move ZERO spaces (you may move from zero to the full printed move or a card). Now heal.

"You may move a figure in any direction UP TO the Move number on its Army Card."

[Doc_Savage]

Originally Posted by K/H_Addict

what if MBS stares at a Gnator, or James Murphy Whips one. Do they still get there auto shield, even though you didnt roll anything?

No. Because those things are not a NORMAL ATTACK!

[jcb231]

Originally Posted by CornPuff

Uh oh, I might have to make a Phases of Attack post.

The rules are written to make the game as easy to understand, and to outline the spirit of the game. If they took the time to outline the exact mechanics HS operates on in the rulebook and cards, no one would play the game.

Ok.

'When Rolling Defense' refers to a phase of attack resolution. After an MBS stare or a Murphy whip, they cannot roll any defense dice. So the G'Nators roll no defense dice, rather, during the defense dice rolling phase, they roll 0 def dice. Then they add their automatic shiled to whatever is rolled. In this case, 0 shields were rolled out of 0 dice, add the auto-shield, and then the shield total is one.

This is the same thing as no move, no summon with saylind (disproven) and no move, no attack, no chomp w Grimnak (disproven).

maybe it is time to make my Phases of Attack Resolution chart...

**** on toast, do I need to add ANOTHER damned rules question to the Craig list? sigh.....

I would say that the intention here is that when a figure is barred from rolling for defense, they cannot defend, period. So not auto-shield.

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

[jcb231]

Um, doc...MBS and James attack AFTER they do those things. They are refering to the attack that follows, as whip and stare do no damage on their own.

[MacG]

Originally Posted by jcb231

**** on toast, do I need to add ANOTHER damned rules question to the Craig list? sigh.....

I would say that the intention here is that when a figure is barred from rolling for defense, they cannot defend, period. So not auto-shield.

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

No you don't. We've had that answer. It was after net, but I think it was HQ, not here. The Gorillinators only get the autoshield when they get to roll. If they don't roll, then too darn bad.

It's slow enough getting answers without starting repeats!

[CornPuff]

I'll do the phases of Attack Resolution on another thread, because they aren't going to help here.

Basically, I think that MBS makes a figure skip their dice roll, but not their auto-shields. Sigmazero and crew think that MBS makes the defending figure skip their entire defense phase, including dice rolling and auto shields., I'll go ahead and say that they aren't going to solve anything.

jcb231, This is totally a question for Craig at Gencon. I'm quite surprised we haven't discussed this earlier on the boards.

I will throw this out, for the 'story' people and the 'role players,' I think of tough much like natural armor or hide. So it makes some sense that it would stay around. Plus the G'nators need all the help they can get!

[Rÿchean]

Originally Posted by jcb231

If this is not true, then Gorillinators just became the ultimate counter-unit to Deadeye Dan.

Nah DED's enhanced rifle is a special attack and Gnators dont get the auto shield on a special attack.

[sigmazero13]

Originally Posted by CornPuff

Basically, I think that MBS makes a figure skip their dice roll, but not their auto-shields. Sigmazero and crew think that MBS makes the defending figure skip their entire defense phase, including dice rolling and auto shields., I'll go ahead and say that they aren't going to solve anything.

If they are skipping their roll, how would they get the auto-shield? The card is pretty explicit that they only get the auto-shield when they roll defense dice.

Choosing to roll 0 (which you can't do anyway) is different than not being allowed to roll at all. MBS says you cannot roll defense dice. It doesn't say you roll no dice (which, in game terms, mean very different things).


Just out of curiosity, you say it isn't going to "solve anything". What do you mean by this?


I want to clarify I'm not asking this to be argumentative, but merely to spark discussion. However, I'm almost 100% certain this very issue was ruled on once in the HQ days, and so if it changes I'm going to be a little shocked.

[CornPuff]

its cool. I didn't see the ruling, but I didn't hang out much on HQ either.

I'm a programmer so rolling 0 dice seems to me like a reasonable thing to do

I just meant that we have agreed to disagree. I think the tough ability means adding a shield to the result to the time in which you would normally roll, rather than link adding shields to the physical act of rolling

My basis is that I beleive it would have been more difficult for the designers to say it any other way, and the current wording of tough is short and effective. Although this discussion makes me question how effective it really is