Porting AotP Into Scape

[Johngee]

Originally Posted by aquamaniac27

The big problem is these two questions:
1) Do we keep Planeswalker summoning in Scape with these figures?
2) Do we keep the spell decks with these Planeswalkers?

Both drastically change how Scape is played, and would set different power levels for customs. Don't forget, this thread is about bring AotP into Heroscape, not the other way around. If you just mash them together, no changes need be made.

YES, I agree that these questions NEED to be answered FIRST. Since I am not a member of any consortium of custom units creators for classic 'Scape or any other 'Scape, this is only my personal opinion that I am offering which probably isn't even worth in this debate.


If this were a Poll, I would vote YES for #1 and NO for #2.


My reasons for #1 are: I like the concept or mechanic of summoning in general as it appears with Ishkra and the Retchets or Kurrock and the Elementals, IF it is kept to a limited ability, i.e. each of the five Planeswalkers can summon ONE unit ally. Regarding #2: I do *NOT* like CCG or LCG games and do *NOT* want to add a deck of Spell cards to ANY HeroScape character's arsenal; however, I am not agaist the idea of choosing one or two of the sorcery/enchantment Spells and adding that text to a PW's custom 'Scape card as his/her Special Ability in the same manner as Raelyn and Runa, etc. project their own Auras.


&obtw: @Aquamaniac 27 - I was in Lancaster, PA last Fri. for the WBC. Are you willing to come to West Chester to meet some other HeroScapeRs? @tom recently mentioned that he would like to get an unofficial M:AotP quasi-tournament organized in the near future, so that we can get used to using the PW's and their Spell card decks by seeing them in action during 4 or 5 games in a row on a Saturday afternoon.

[Yodaking]

I find the new spell decks is the most exciting and interesting development to come from this bastard child of classic Heroscape. To not include it when combining the two games would be a tragedy IMO. I'm starting to think the idea of an 'official' and widely accepted set of rules for combining the two games is not going to be possible. Sure the games are 80% the same, but the 20% that is different seems to be polarizing. It seem more likely that everyone is just going to do whatever it is they like when combining the games and their will be a dozen different versions of how the two games can be combined.

[aquamaniac27]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I find the new spell decks is the most exciting and interesting development to come from this bastard child of classic Heroscape. To not include it when combining the two games would be a tragedy IMO. I'm starting to think the idea of an 'official' and widely accepted set of rules for combining the two games is not going to be possible. Sure the games are 80% the same, but the 20% that is different seems to be polarizing. It seem more likely that everyone is just going to do whatever it is they like when combining the games and their will be a dozen different versions of how the two games can be combined.

When I hear "porting into" I think of changing aspects of something so that it fits in something else, not just combining them together. I don't want to port Scape into AotP. AotP and Scape are similar enough as it is, that just putting them together requires no real meddling. (There are a few major issues, such as "If a Planeswalker isn't a creature then what figures in classic scape are not creatures?" but most things work.)

I feel if we want to port AotP into Scape, we need to slice off that which makes AotP different than Scape. While I personally do not like either the decks or the constant guaranteed summoning, I get that people do. It's just not classic Scape. Some people argue "But Iskra!" forgetting that she has a 35% chance at successfully summoning the Retchets.

I also fear that squads with more than 1 life can only further complicate the game in the long run. While the summoning and decks are not my favorite, I don't hate them. I actively hate squads with life greater than 1. It kills the flavor of a squad.

[chas]

I'm sorry that its taking me a while to actually get and play the game. I can't really chime in that much until that happens. When I do, I'll simply lay down my own rules here for my own version-- PLANESCAPE! Then this thread will be more focused, because people who don't consider it worthy of discussion or trying out will just be asked not to hijack this thread, and work instead with the group they feel sympatico with--or start their own thread! Until then...

Yodaking,

I agree with you. But you can't expect there will be one true way to play unless "C3P" is formed, or when everyone agrees with me (not going to happen). The optimistic way to look at this is that you''ll have a wide choice of how to play, until the different methods shake out a bit. I imagine anyone running a tournament will of course come up with their own version for it. Although I imagine that any early tournaments will be for WotP as is for a while.

Aquamaniac,

Even the Elf Ranger's card says that they are "creatures." So I'd guess, not knowing much about MTG, that they are not 'real' Elf Rangers, but constructs that act like ERs, because that's how their Planeswalker rolls!

***

Which puts me in mind of Edgar Rice Burrough's very old novel I read as a high schooler The Chessmen of Mars, where a summoned archer of an Ancient Martian era (its in the John Carter of Mars series) doesn't disappear with his fellows after they serve in defense of the hero and later are dismissed (and disappear) but stays behind and becomes a real character in the adventure! Which is never really explained to the reader or the characters, except that he believes in himself more strongly than the others did!

So ya gotta believe...in the future of the game.

[aquamaniac27]

Originally Posted by chas

Aquamaniac,

Even the Elf Ranger's card says that they are "creatures." So I'd guess, not knowing much about MTG, that they are not 'real' Elf Rangers, but constructs that act like ERs, because that's how their Planeswalker rolls!

In magic, creature and planeswalker are card super types (like sorcery or enchantment). Nissa is still an elf, even though she is also a Planeswalker, but in MTG her card is not considered a creature. The elves are still elves, not constructs.

[chas]

Since I have a copy of the rules, here is my first cut at Porting AotP into Scape. It will be placed on the OP as well, and updated there. Further rules clarifications on the new game should be used as well. Other scenarios may also be developed.

All comments are welcome. Keep in mind the aim of bringing the new game into conformity with the old one as simply as possible.

***

PLANESCAPE

RULES FOR ADDING
MAGIC THE GATHERING: ARENA OF THE PLANESWALKERS (AP)
INTO HEROSCAPE (HS)

By Chas (Draft 1 8/18/15)



Rules for both games are used, except where noted below.


1. Each player may use one Planeswalker (PW) in their army, who starts as that army does on the battlefield. Their own point cost and that of their spell deck must be paid separately.

2. All PW creatures must also be paid for separately. They start in the Reserve, and
must be summoned onto the battlefield.

3. Planeswalkers and PW Creatures are activated by Scape Order Markers, as are Scape figures.

4. If your Planeswalker is killed, all if his/her spells and creatures are removed from the game.

5. When your Planeswalker takes a turn, he/she follows the AP turn sequence.

[chas]

Picked up my copy today--just in time for the gang to take a look when they come over in a few hours!

[IshMEL]

Originally Posted by chas

Since I have a copy of the rules, here is my first cut at Porting AotP into Scape. It will be placed on the OP as well, and updated there. Further rules clarifications on the new game should be used as well. Other scenarios may also be developed.

All comments are welcome. Keep in mind the aim of bringing the new game into conformity with the old one as simply as possible.

***

PLANESCAPE

RULES FOR ADDING
MAGIC THE GATHERING: ARENA OF THE PLANESWALKERS (AP)
INTO HEROSCAPE (HS)

By Chas (Draft 1 8/18/15)



Rules for both games are used, except where noted below.


1. Each player may use one Planeswalker (PW) in their army, who starts as that army does on the battlefield. Their own point cost and that of their spell deck must be paid separately.

2. All PW creatures must also be paid for separately. They start in the Reserve, and
must be summoned onto the battlefield.

3. Planeswalkers and PW Creatures are activated by Scape Order Markers, as are Scape figures.

4. If your Planeswalker is killed, all if his/her spells and creatures are removed from the game.

5. When your Planeswalker takes a turn, he/she follows the AP turn sequence.

I like where this is going! My only thought is on the summoned units all dying if the PW is killed. Seems like it would be an automatic win most of the time for the opponent. Three other possibilities to consider:

A) Summoned Squads are not affected.
B) All Summoned Squad figures take one wound.
C) SSFs lose any enchantments but are otherwise unaffected.

Just a few suggestions to consider!

[chas]

Ishmel,

Suggestions certainly worth considering, but you've got to start somewhere. Remember that I'm trying to set up mixed games, where the Planeswalker is just another unit in a Scape army; so his/her demise should not be the end of your side necesarily, as it would be in a PW only army.

[shmet]

Something that I don't think has been considered is running the planeswalker outside of order markers somehow. For example, they are activated once per round either at the beginning or the end or any time a figure would be activated you may instead choose to go with your planeswalker.

Personally I think the spell deck is OP and random. I've played several Arena and have noticed that the spell deck has way to much game changing potential for being something unknown to the other players and partially unknown to the controlling player. However, I don't think that spells can be entirely eliminated when porting Arena into HS. What might be good is having players choose X (however many turns out to be good from playtesting) spell cards which are kept face up through the game.

One of the reasons HS is better than the MTG card game IMO is because in HS people can know their opponent's capabilities before the game begins and start to think about how they play instead of running in blindly and getting "drop-kicked" by an enchantment or what have you.

[Targanth]

Originally Posted by chas

4. If your Planeswalker is killed, all if his/her spells and creatures are removed from the game.

Of all the rules you've listed, this one may be suspect. Removing the spells makes sense, but removing the creatures is less definite.

I played a 4 player game of Arena recently. When my Planeswalker was killed, I still had the squads available to harass the opponents while my team mate struggled to even the score and kill an enemy Planeswalker. The 4 player rules state the the first team to destroy the enemy Planeswalkers wins, and does not mention removing letfover bits of a color that has lost a Planeswalker.

Removing all the squads when the Planeswalker is defeated will be removing up to 500 points from the army. I'll guess that few armies will overcome that deficit, though that type of comeback is what Heroscape legends are made from.

[Johngee]

Originally Posted by IshMEL

I like where this is going! My only thought is on the summoned units all dying if the PW is killed. Seems like it would be an automatic win most of the time for the opponent. Three other possibilities to consider:

A) Summoned Squads are not affected.
B) All Summoned Squad figures take one wound.
C) SSFs lose any enchantments but are otherwise unaffected.

Just a few suggestions to consider!

Ninja'ed by IshMel. I agree in principal with all three suggestions.


However, (B) is what I was going to suggest, until I realized that it would affect the POINT COST of the unit and every figure in the unit if each one had ONLY 1 LIFE to give for their PW.


Some play-testing may be required to keep things balanced or else no one will use . . .
Chandra's 1-LIFE Blazing Firecats for 100 pts (previously 2 Life each),
Gideon's 1-LIFE Rhox Veterans for 90 pts (previously 3 Life each),
Gideon's 1-LIFE Kor Hookmasters for 60 pts (previously 3 Life each),
Jace's 1-LIFE Leyline Phantoms for 95 pts (previously 3 Life each),
Jace's 1-LIFE Illusionary Projections for 65 pts (previously 2 Life each),
Liliana's 1-LIFE Blighted Reavers for 115 pts (previously 3 Life each),
Nissa's 1-LIFE Pummelroot Elementals for 90 pts (previously 3 Life each),
Nissa's 1-LIFE Elf Rangers for 80 pts (previously 3 Life each),
. . . when it is more cost effective to use:
Chandra's 1-Life Flamewing Phoenixes for 35 pts. (originally 1 Life each)
Liliana's 1-LIFE Restless Zombies for 60 pts. (originally 1 Life each)