Unit Debate #3 -- Valguard Vs. Parmenio

[MegaSilver]

Taking advice from Heroscapers, I have made a new debate against some underused units, this week over Heroes.

This week is between Valguard, the Viking Warlord that has an alien arm, and Parmenio, the Warlord that only works best with the Sacred Band.



I am not asking for some strategies to use, though you could name some if you like. I am asking in your opinion, with proof shown, who you believe is the better unit.

With these Heroes, you may discuss thier bonding units with them also, and/or units that are directly affected by thier presence (i.e. Tarn Vikings).


Compare the units by looking at thier:

1. Stats/Special Powers

2. Playability

3. Overall Usefullness

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head

5. Army Builds

Here is an example of how to answer:

Originally Posted by Einar Gen.
I think most of the time the knights would have the advantage.The way I see it, the knights are good, well rounded figures capable of taking down other squads in decent time due to their 3 atk dice, and lasting for a longer time against heroes due to their 4 defense dice and coward's reward. The gladiators, on the other hand, are heavy hitters. There is one less member to a squad, but most of the time they will have 1 better move and attack than the knights, resulting in better chances of killing tougher targets. Honestly, it's hard to compare the two cause of how different they are. But if it came down to an all out brawl, my money'd be on the knight's squads and the gladiator's heroes.

The Debate List is up and running now, showing all of the debates that I have started.

MegaSilver

[MegaSilver]

Here is a hint for next week's debate:

Spoiler Alert!

It will be between two units from Wave 9. I did not do them this week since the Heroscaper Community has had no time to actually own them, and by next week a large percentage of you should have your hands on them.

MegaSilver

[Einar Gen.]

Valguard. Parmenio is practically useless without the sacred band, and even then he's not that good. For 20 more points, Valguard is stronger than Parmenio, and offers a more competitive bonus to Berseker charge. Not a whole lot to say... Neither is really competitive, but I believe Valguard is better.

[Onacara]

One on One Valguard is better on the first attack provided Parmenio did not engage him first...after that they are even with each rolling 1 less attack to the others defense on even ground.

However Parmenio's Diciplined influence makes him better (IMO) because you can build a diciplined army and throw in one big killer* unit that isn't and not lose the Sacred Bands diciplined army bonus. If they ever made a similar figure with the ability to make any 1 unit Valiant then the 4th Mass's value goes way up.


*(or you could add Raelin for added defense)

[Land-based AE]

Parmenio.

With the gladiator squad out to help Spartacus, Valguard is now the most isolated figure in the game in my opinion. No piece really helps him in a special way and you have to cross generals to get him to help anyone out.

Valguard has great life but that means you get a long-lasting figure with a measely attack. I'd love to see some Dreadgulls released because I think Valguard could be a really fun piece if something came out that worked with him.

When the Dreadgulls come out, then he's better than Parmenio, but right now, it's the Greek.

[Majai of Dreams]

Valguard to me is not meant to be a 1 on 1 combattant. He is designed to charge from one figure to the next to maximise his attack die and let his high life absorb leaving engagement rolls.
Parmenio is also not meant to be 1 on 1 due to his abilities all helping other units.

So in the event these two some how are the last on the field at full life, I would give it to Valguard because of his better stats. Especially if he gets the initiative and charges in for a good hard hit.

I think it would be close though. Valguards stats arent overwhelmingly superior. Whomever the victor is, they will have the scars of battle to show off.

[Mooseman]

Parmenio is better. If you factor in synergy, Parmenio clearly add much more to his army. As a bonding hero for the greeks he is far superior. Sure Valgaurd fighting Parmenio gives valgaurd the win because of his 7 life, but give them each a squad of greeks and Parmenio cleans house with +1 defense and defy death.

Compared to other 110 point beatsticks, Valgaurd clearly loses out to old Drake and agent Carr. Sure he has twice the survivability, but he just can't do any damage. Standing alone, he can't compete, and in his niche as a bonding hero, marcus and parmenio are better.

[Dread Pirate Fooflesnort]

Neither of them are that good, but I have to give the edge to Valguard. Parmenio is completely useless without the Sacred Band. With the Sacred Band, he is only moderately useless.

[StarofEarendil]

Valguard is better. Not only does he best Parmenio in combat, but he also has better synergies.
All of Parmenio's powers are for one thing: benefiting the "Sacred" Band, while Valguard bonds with the Band, or better yet the Romans. Also he gives the Tarns a d20 bonus.

[Einar's puppy]

1. Stats/Special Powers Valgaurd has a lot more use and practicality due to the fact that he doesn't rely on a weak melee squad to stay next to him.

2. Playability Valgaurd is far more playable, because he works with the Romans who are far superior to the Greeks. Parmenio works with the weaker squad.

3. Overall Usefullness Neither are highly usefull, but Parmenio is a one-trick pony. Valgaurd can do more.

4. Who Would Win Head-To-Head Valgaurd. Romans > Greeks, and Valgaurd can get some powerful hits in there.

5. Army Builds Again, Valgaurd has many more options available to him, and they are generally better ones too.

Valgaurd is clearly better.

Originally Posted by Onacara

However Parmenio's Diciplined influence makes him better (IMO) because you can build a diciplined army and throw in one big killer* unit that isn't and not lose the Sacred Bands diciplined army bonus. If they ever made a similar figure with the ability to make any 1 unit Valiant then the 4th Mass's value goes way up.

The thing is, Valgaurd's Roman army can already take that big hero. I've seen Q9+Roman Armies before. It's not hard to keep at least two Romans together at any one time anyway, so they don't need the bonus. You can make a much better army with Romans and Valgaurd than with the sacred band.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Land-based AE

Parmenio.

With the gladiator squad out to help Spartacus, Valguard is now the most isolated figure in the game in my opinion. No piece really helps him in a special way and you have to cross generals to get him to help anyone out.

Valguard has great life but that means you get a long-lasting figure with a measely attack. I'd love to see some Dreadgulls released because I think Valguard could be a really fun piece if something came out that worked with him.

When the Dreadgulls come out, then he's better than Parmenio, but right now, it's the Greek.

How is he any more isolated than Sudema, or Dund, or, say, Gueri-Oni? Unlike all of those, Valguard has TWO squads who have turn bonding with him. I'd argue that he's a lot LESS isolated than any number of figures, Parmenio not included.
Also, I think some of you are being a tad short sighted in implying Parmenio can only bond with the Sacred Band. He can bond with the Romans as well, he just can't really get the benefit of his special powers in that occasion. He's still a 90 point hero who can add an extra attack per turn marker, though. What kills him in that build, however, is NGS is usually going to be a better choice for the points.
However, that hurts Valguard as well, IMO. Marcus is always going to be the first Warlord you want to choose in a Greek or Roman build, and after that you're probably going to want to pepper in some range. After that, if it's the Greeks you consider adding in Parmenio if you want the flexibility to add in non-disciplined figures, and if it's the (probably superior) Romans, you consider adding in MBS and NGS. Unless you're in pretty high point games or for some reason want to add a unique melee squad to your common squad hordes, you're not likely to add in Valguard.
So I would argue that Parmenio > Valguard because his points make him easier to fit in more armies and because he's a logical choice in some Sacred Band armies over other Warlords, whereas Valguard never seems to be a logical choice over other Warlords (with the possible exception of over Parmenio in a Romans build - but NGS and MBS beat them both, as I suggested earlier).

[Jexik]

Valguard suffers from and acute case of Denrickitis. He has decent enough stats and abilities, but there are almost always better options (see: Marcus, MBS, NGS).

Parmenio is generally worse, but can be used in some 'cute' armies, like playing with a Disciplined Brunak, Q9, Krav or Raelin... or Valguard. The real kicker is that it's almost always better to just play Marcus even in a Sacred Band army and not waste your time with Parmenio.