The Book of Martian Manhunter (Justice League)

[Tornado]

Bats, what does the point calculator say for the latest version?

His stats are just slightly lower than Supes(400) whose value is almost all from stats.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Bats, what does the point calculator say for the latest version?

His stats are just slightly lower than Supes(400) whose value is almost all from stats.

From his stats:
275

I also had this breakdown of his powers, comparing them to what other figures with the similar powers have point wise after their stats:

Flying - 30
Superstrength - 5
Density Control - 45
Markers based on Classes - 0
= 80

Total of 355 before his main power is counted:

Clear Sight for team - 10
Control Denial Within 4 Spaces - 25
Double Turn Once Per Round Per JL Marker Within 8 Spaces - 35

~70 (give or take 5-10)

For a total of 425.

The thing is, we also have to take into account how much those powers really fluctuate in terms of usefulness. Offering clear sight is great, but it's not something that comes into play with every grouping. How many figures can take control of another figure? I'd say out of the 600+, probably 30 max? The double turns are restricted by once per round, within 8 spaces, and are limited in number. All in all, I feel a total of 60-70 for that power as a whole seems accurate, which is what would put him at 415-425. So I'd say depending on how much value you give to those specific powers, would determine whether you'd see him at 410-430, within that range I'd say is right on track.

[IAmBatman]

I think you might be undervaluing the double turns. That's theoryscape, though. The limit on markers and shorter range makes it less powerful than Prof X's at least. How much do you figure Mutant Mind Link costs by itself? 100 points?

[johnny139]

Hard limits to the number of markets are the rule in C3G, so I imagine that's non-negotiable.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I really do think this is necessary - otherwise, his power level will increase exponentially with game size, and in a large battle the Justice League would wipe the floor with most people, including the Avengers - I really think those armies should be more evenly matched (and actually think a classic JL team vs a classic Avengers team is a test that needs to happen). Also remember that not one figure in the whole game has an unlimited number of any kind of Marker (well, there's Absorbing Man, but that's capped by no one having a defence higher than 8 in C3G). How many markers is someone expected to print out? How many markers will be put on the card sheet? I know this is a minor point, but the other one is important, and it doesn't change how he works in most games - it just makes him that bit more workable.

In a 3500 point game he would certainly have a bunch of markers, he just shouldn't ever be able to use them all before getting killed now with the range aspect in place. As long as he is required to be closer to the action, his opponent should be able to break away a few heroes to move adj. & start scoring some wounds. That being said, I could go with a hard cap of something like 8. I had 6 markers at 2400 points but used a bunch of high point Champions like Superman, Thor, & BRB. Fielding more Officers, Warriors, & Vigilantes at 2400+ points should get you up to 8 rather easily.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

In a 3500 point game he would certainly have a bunch of markers, he just shouldn't ever be able to use them all before getting killed now with the range aspect in place. As long as he is required to be closer to the action, his opponent should be able to break away a few heroes to move adj. & start scoring some wounds. That being said, I could go with a hard cap of something like 8. I had 6 markers at 2400 points but used a bunch of high point Champions like Superman, Thor, & BRB. Fielding more Officers, Warriors, & Vigilantes at 2400+ points should get you up to 8 rather easily.

Why that many? 8 is ridiculously high for a power like this, and most people aren't playing 2400+point games. I think 5 is best, in line with Cap.

[IAmBatman]

I like 8. In a 1490 point game, you can fit in MM at 420 and the 8 lowest costing Vigilantes.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Why that many? 8 is ridiculously high for a power like this, and most people aren't playing 2400+point games. I think 5 is best, in line with Cap.

Why do you hate Echo & Batman Beyond? They want to come out and play too and won't be picked when you are getting the same number of markers by taking Batman & Black Canary. Their is a direct cost benefit here that you seem to be overlooking. Take low level figures and get more markers to burn, take high point figures and get fewer markers to burn. It is self balancing. Also Cap and his markers have nothing at all to do with this, the powers are nothing at all alike.

[IAmBatman]

Yes. The Cap comparisons have to stop. They're just not relevant. This design will need to be the best version of itself, not the best mirror of Cap's.

[johnny139]

Personally I like 7 Markers, so you can get maximum efficiency with the original 7 (subbing Barry for Wally) or the cartoon team.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Personally I like 7 Markers, so you can get maximum efficiency with the original 7 (subbing Barry for Wally) or the cartoon team.

subbing Barry (Scientist) for Wally (Champion) would leave you with 6 markers, though, right?

Batman (200), Superman (400), Wonder Woman (300), Aquaman (Warrior) (330), Martian Manhunter (420), Flash (Barry) (250), GL (Hal) (350) = 2250 points, six markers

(you could also go either Batman II or Superman II to put that at 2300 even. Or throw in Atom. Wouldn't change the markers, though).

Edit: Nevermind, I understand now - you're saying take Barry out and put Wally in. OK, so:

Batman (200), Superman (400), Wonder Woman (300), Aquaman (Warrior) (330), Martian Manhunter (420), Flash (Wally) (280), GL (Hal) (350) = 2280 points, sevenmarkers

Gotcha.

2280 isn't exactly a sexy army build, though. I'm OK with 7 markers, but prefer 8. (Of course, if MM comes in at 440, then it'll be a nice round 2300).

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I think you might be undervaluing the double turns. That's theoryscape, though. The limit on markers and shorter range makes it less powerful than Prof X's at least. How much do you figure Mutant Mind Link costs by itself? 100 points?

Here's my logic.

Prof. X has Double Turns with 2 Mutants, or 1 non-Mutant, within 10 spaces, unlimited amount of times per round.

Martian Manhunter has Double Turns with anyone, within 8 spaces, once per round, and it's limited by his amount of markers.

On average, Martian Manhunter at 1,000 points will get 2-3 markers, 1,600 points will get 4-5 markers, and 2,500 points get up to 7 markers(I like that as a cap if we're picking a number).

Martian Manhunter may be able to get double turns with a variety of people, but he can't actually get the markers without picking from the specific classes, so it's not that un-like the Mutants(which there are very good and powerful Mutants out there when used with double turns).

The biggest difference however, is that he's limited to only 4 turns a round at max, with a stricter range limit, and at max 0-7 times per game depending on who you draft and the point value of the game. Whereas Professor X can get 6 turns every round in best case scenario.

I'd put Professor X's power at 100, and I'd put Martian Manhunter's slightly over a third of that, based on its own drawbacks, restrictions, and limitations.

That's my take.

Originally Posted by johnny139

Hard limits to the number of markets are the rule in C3G, so I imagine that's non-negotiable.

I figured we'd need a limit, for sure, especially for 2,500+ point games. I just didn't want it being put so low just for the sake of having a cap on it to match up with Cap. That's not the goal here, and they are completely different than how Cap's work, from start to finish.

Originally Posted by johnny139

Personally I like 7 Markers, so you can get maximum efficiency with the original 7 (subbing Barry for Wally) or the cartoon team.

I was thinking 7, that ties in great thematically, and I feel it's enough to warrant drafting in several game sizes and point ranges.

Martian Manhunter (420)
Superman III (470)
Wonder Woman (300)
Batman III (260)
The Flash (Wally) (280)
Green Lantern (Hal) (350)
Aquaman I (230)

2,310 : 6 Markers

That leaves an extra 190 to pick up a Vigilante(Canary), or get Wonder Woman II instead(probably ~50 points higher than WW I), or Aquaman II instead(80 points higher), or you could get Barry for 30 points less, then pick up Hawkman or Hawkgirl etc.

Then we must keep in mind, Superman III and Batman III, as well as Cyborg II etc. will be able to pull in their own marker amounts from the classes they have tied in. So if you decide to get Barry instead, he'll be giving 1 more to Batman instead of MM.

So 7 seems just fitting.