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  #13  
Old April 28th, 2021, 01:05 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Cool this moved to AotV project. Others can comment an test any idea but AotV members will be approving and moving to each stage.

One thing to note is that when on maps with Crytoliths, the Quicksand will be right next to Crytoliths unless we cover them up. I was thinking, similar to maps with Tundra terrain, map-makers will specify if Quicksand rules are in place or not, but we should have standard rules for all maps if rules are "on". Also, if the terrain is only a "negative" power then maps need to be designed with them in chokepoints or on height, but unlike Heavy Snow and Slippery Ice, there are not a lot of hexes to go around to do that. Maybe somehow make the terrain have both a boon and bane. I agree with @NecroBlade to keep it simple and my last suggestion was too complicated. Maybe:

Quote:
Figures without a power with water on it starting their move on quick-sand spaces subtract 3 from their move. You may count quick-sand as sand or water for special powers of any figure.
Wording needs to be better but you get the idea. I think will help Durnipia and any other figure with water power.
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Old May 26th, 2021, 12:21 AM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

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Originally Posted by lefton4ya View Post
Cool this moved to AotV project. Others can comment an test any idea but AotV members will be approving and moving to each stage.

One thing to note is that when on maps with Crytoliths, the Quicksand will be right next to Crytoliths unless we cover them up. I was thinking, similar to maps with Tundra terrain, map-makers will specify if Quicksand rules are in place or not, but we should have standard rules for all maps if rules are "on". Also, if the terrain is only a "negative" power then maps need to be designed with them in chokepoints or on height, but unlike Heavy Snow and Slippery Ice, there are not a lot of hexes to go around to do that. Maybe somehow make the terrain have both a boon and bane. I agree with @NecroBlade to keep it simple and my last suggestion was too complicated. Maybe:

Quote:
Figures without a power with water on it starting their move on quick-sand spaces subtract 3 from their move. You may count quick-sand as sand or water for special powers of any figure.
Wording needs to be better but you get the idea. I think will help Durnipia and any other figure with water power.
I think that in general, any terrain rules need to be very simple and immediately tied to the core associations with that terrain. Lava destroys, solid hot ground hurts, water slows the figure, road is faster, et cetera. To that end, my favorite idea for "quicksand" remains my original suggestion:
When a figure ends its move on a quicksand space, roll the 20-sided die. Add that figure's height to your roll. If you roll a 1-11, then that figure receives one wound.
That all said, it looks like the brainstorming in this thread was more of from the perspective of mixing the few hexes with an existing HS Master Set collection than from the standalone perspective of AotV designs. I'm hesitant to tie many rules into what will realistically be some players' only option for height differentiation. Designing terrain rules for Arena of the Planeswalkers content as a standalone product is very different from designing a new limited HeroScape terrain pack, and we have to keep that in mind.

I still don't like the idea of quicksand for AotV for several reasons. The most apparent one is probably that the 3D hexes in our boxes aren't flat tiles like water, ice, or shadow--they resemble sandstone more than quicksand, IMO. We also don't have enough of those hexes to really justify flipping it so that the cardboard hexes are slow or dangerous, either: even combining all three boxes, it's often tough to build more than one decent hill.
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  #15  
Old May 26th, 2021, 10:20 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
That all said, it looks like the brainstorming in this thread was more of from the perspective of mixing the few hexes with an existing HS Master Set collection than from the standalone perspective of AotV designs. I'm hesitant to tie many rules into what will realistically be some players' only option for height differentiation. Designing terrain rules for Arena of the Planeswalkers content as a standalone product is very different from designing a new limited HeroScape terrain pack, and we have to keep that in mind.
Aside from water, it may simply be best to have any terrain rules (these, weird spaces) be optional (and/or declared in each scenario).

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I still don't like the idea of quicksand for AotV for several reasons. The most apparent one is probably that the 3D hexes in our boxes aren't flat tiles like water, ice, or shadow--they resemble sandstone more than quicksand, IMO. We also don't have enough of those hexes to really justify flipping it so that the cardboard hexes are slow or dangerous, either: even combining all three boxes, it's often tough to build more than one decent hill.
The fact that they're the only 3D hexes, and that tying up a majority of the cardboard spaces with rules would be a bad idea, is why I keep trying to move the conversation more in this direction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
SAND DUNES:
Shifting Sand: After one of your figures ends its turn on a Sand Dune, you must roll the d20. If you roll 11+, choose an opponent to move that figure one space to a same level or lower space. Figures moved by Shifting Sand do not take leaving engagement attacks.
Btw, thanks for bumping all the threads lately, @Astroking112 . I still don't know when I'll have the time/energy/space to set up my next test(s) but maybe with the long weekend I can get something done Soon™.


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  #16  
Old May 27th, 2021, 06:13 AM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I still don't like the idea of quicksand for AotV for several reasons. The most apparent one is probably that the 3D hexes in our boxes aren't flat tiles like water, ice, or shadow--they resemble sandstone more than quicksand, IMO. We also don't have enough of those hexes to really justify flipping it so that the cardboard hexes are slow or dangerous, either: even combining all three boxes, it's often tough to build more than one decent hill.
The fact that they're the only 3D hexes, and that tying up a majority of the cardboard spaces with rules would be a bad idea, is why I keep trying to move the conversation more in this direction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
SAND DUNES:
Shifting Sand: After one of your figures ends its turn on a Sand Dune, you must roll the d20. If you roll 11+, choose an opponent to move that figure one space to a same level or lower space. Figures moved by Shifting Sand do not take leaving engagement attacks.
Btw, thanks for bumping all the threads lately, @Astroking112 . I still don't know when I'll have the time/energy/space to set up my next test(s) but maybe with the long weekend I can get something done Soon™.
Really...you folks still use the cardboard for AoTV? I'm not against using the cardboard I'm just surprised it's being used. I used it once and then used 'scape hexes...I'm not sure I still have the cardboard unless they're lining the bottom of a box somewhere. I certainly don't have a plethora of hexes but I have enough to build decent sized maps and would love to have quicksand...

Possibly: When you land on the hex, roll a d20, on a 1-10 the figure must stop movement, on 11-20 the figure may move through.
Any figure on a quicksand hex at the end of a round must have a friendly figure stopped adjacent to the 'stuck' figure to begin another movement phase.
At the end of a round (turn? - always get those two mixed up - the end of the full 3 order markers) all figures on quicksand hexes roll one die to see if they are suffocating.

Just a thought...wording needs massaged.

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Last edited by AMIS; May 27th, 2021 at 06:19 AM. Reason: Stuck in the middle with you! Actually if I'm with you, I wouldn't be stuck...
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  #17  
Old May 27th, 2021, 08:13 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIS View Post
Really...you folks still use the cardboard for AoTV?
Yep. This project is supposed to give you a Master Set in and of itself, and to have a Master Set you need to have terrain. The cardboard provides the foundation of full-sized maps. Which will also include scenarios, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMIS View Post
Possibly: When you land on the hex, roll a d20, on a 1-10 the figure must stop movement, on 11-20 the figure may move through.
Any figure on a quicksand hex at the end of a round must have a friendly figure stopped adjacent to the 'stuck' figure to begin another movement phase.
At the end of a round (turn? - always get those two mixed up - the end of the full 3 order markers) all figures on quicksand hexes roll one die to see if they are suffocating.

Just a thought...wording needs massaged.
As previously mentioned, this kind of thing is simply doing way too much. That's more rules than any other terrain, on top of the goal of AotV trying to stay relatively simple. Which would apply to any terrain rules we come up with as well.

(See also: 3D hexes =/= quicksand. Maybe we should change the thread title, @lefton4ya ?)


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  #18  
Old May 28th, 2021, 09:28 AM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

What should we tentatively call the terrain then besides "AOTP Sand" then?

The major point we all agree on is rules should be OPTIONAL to each map/scenario (similar to Heavy Snow and Slippery Ice). However I still would like one unifying ruleset that everyone agrees to also more like Heavy Snow and Slippery Ice rules than "Wierded Spaces".

One thing of importance to note is that every map with a Pillar of Hár (Crypolith) will have at least one ATOP sand tile next to them, so any rule we suggest MUST take that into consideration. Also, yes, they are full height tiles so "Quicksand" may sound not right, so might need a new name like "mud" "sand dune", "sand-storm" or "ant hill" . For rules maybe a quick vote on which direction we want:
  • Movement restriction (force stop movement, extra movement point moving off/on, etc)
  • Wound/death possibility (D20, D6 roll, etc)
  • Ranged attack from restriction (from and/or to figure on terrain)
We could combine some of the above but prefer one way or the other, but need a vote first on this.

Last edited by lefton4ya; May 28th, 2021 at 09:47 AM.
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  #19  
Old May 31st, 2021, 08:54 AM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
SAND DUNES:
Shifting Sand: After one of your figures ends its turn on a Sand Dune, you must roll the d20. If you roll 11+, choose an opponent to move that figure one space to a same level or lower space. Figures moved by Shifting Sand do not take leaving engagement attacks.
I really like this. Short, sweet, and fun. Could be renamed to Fine Sand if we wanted an alternative name. Can always rule it as being considered sand too similar to swamp water and water.

I think the boards should be left as is unless there is a specific scenario rule, but the actual tiles could have optional rules. Sand already has an optional rule in a scenario or two where it becomes mud, so I think a movement based effect would be best suited.
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Old June 6th, 2021, 12:11 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

I think that for the cardboard terrain, we can just have the tiles be Sand, Water, Road, and "Weird Terrain" (name change pending). I don't remember if there are any other distinct cardboard tiles to worry about, but that gives us a wide range of existing classic terrain to work with. Other than the "Weird Tiles," I don't really want to create any scenario-driven unique rules for the basic terrain.

For the 3D tiles, I see them more as being "Sandstone" than another type of Sand. Personally, I think that "dunes" already exist with just stacking the existing Sand terrain in certain ways (and a "dune-specific" rule feels strange that it wouldn't apply to the other Sand terrain to me). Thematically, it feels a bit off to me in an almost similar way to how I don't think Quicksand fits, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
(See also: 3D hexes =/= quicksand. Maybe we should change the thread title, @lefton4ya ?)
Seconded for the title change. Adding the [AotV] tag to the title of the thread should help it be more immediately apparent that this thread is now focused on the project.
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Old June 6th, 2021, 12:32 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

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Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Other than the "Weird Tiles," I don't really want to create any scenario-driven unique rules for the basic terrain.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Personally, I think that "dunes" already exist with just stacking the existing Sand terrain in certain ways (and a "dune-specific" rule feels strange that it wouldn't apply to the other Sand terrain to me).
Sure, but stacked sand has exactly 0 special rules. Also, do grass/rock/sand even had names officially? I think that's just what we've gotten used to calling them, but since they don't have any special rules they're not actually named in the rulebooks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
(See also: 3D hexes =/= quicksand. Maybe we should change the thread title, @lefton4ya ?)
Seconded for the title change. Adding the [AotV] tag to the title of the thread should help it be more immediately apparent that this thread is now focused on the project.
Yes. @lefton4ya could you update the thread title to [AotP] Terrain Rules Discussion? That way it covers whatever we end up calling the 3D hexes, and we could do 'weird' terrain here, too (unless everyone would rather have a separate thread for that.


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  #22  
Old June 7th, 2021, 08:50 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Other than the "Weird Tiles," I don't really want to create any scenario-driven unique rules for the basic terrain.
Sure, but stacked sand has exactly 0 special rules. Also, do grass/rock/sand even had names officially? I think that's just what we've gotten used to calling them, but since they don't have any special rules they're not actually named in the rulebooks.
Yes, the Rise of the Valkyrie rulebook specifically refers to Grass, Water, Rock, and Sand tiles.

I want to say that they were also used in one of the scenarios somewhere (something along the lines of Sand becoming mud because of rain in one of the scenarios), but I couldn't find it when looking through my old RotV scenario book and may be thinking of something user-made there instead of an online-exclusive scenario. In that regard, I suppose that I could buy something similar if the added rules are fairly light and thematically intuitive.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
(See also: 3D hexes =/= quicksand. Maybe we should change the thread title, @lefton4ya ?)
Seconded for the title change. Adding the [AotV] tag to the title of the thread should help it be more immediately apparent that this thread is now focused on the project.
Yes. @lefton4ya could you update the thread title to [AotP] Terrain Rules Discussion? That way it covers whatever we end up calling the 3D hexes, and we could do 'weird' terrain here, too (unless everyone would rather have a separate thread for that.
Weird Terrain will eventually need its own thread for special rules, I think, so perhaps we should keep those brainstorming processes separate? Each thread could probably be in the AotV Maps & Scenarios subforum when we get around to it.

Also, the thread tag should actually be [AotV] for Arena of the Valkyrie, not the Arena of the Planeswalkers game that we're using. Perhaps we should have chosen a different acronym.
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Old June 7th, 2021, 09:06 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Yes, the Rise of the Valkyrie rulebook specifically refers to Grass, Water, Rock, and Sand tiles.
Interesting, I hadn't quite gotten as far as digging out the rulebook.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Also, the thread tag should actually be [AotV] for Arena of the Valkyrie, not the Arena of the Planeswalkers game that we're using. Perhaps we should have chosen a different acronym.
I can't believe I typed AotP.


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Old June 7th, 2021, 09:08 PM
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Re: New Heroscape Terrain "Quick-Sand" - Collaborate rules

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I can't believe I typed AotP.
It happens to us all eventually.
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