The Book of Batman (Dick Grayson)

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Since I didn't get him into the battle much, I didn't really get a chance to use the glyphs. The Gauntlets came in handy against the Kryptonians, but that's match-up dependent. There aren't currently any glyphs that really feel like must-drafts for him. Grapple is only needed on maps with tall heights (buildings and such) as AM already gives him disengagement. Shuriken gives him a ranged attack, but without the multi-attack option it gives Batman, so it's not always very useful.Police Scanner is kind of nice with Gordon and the Cops, but I've never found the Goggles and the First Aid Kit to be very useful. So yeah, some more Utility glyphs would be really nice for him. I'd definitely lean toward the high side on costing him, due to the potential for his usefulness to grow as more Utility glyphs and/or units for him to counter are released.

I find First Aid Kit really useful on Bruce, but that's because Shadow Strike gives him so much more value out of each singular life, and because he can be offensive even on defense, so missing out an attack doesn't hurt as much. When I use the First Aid Kit with other units, they usually take the wound back as soon as they heal it, so missing the attack doesn't feel worthwhile.

I'm guessing we'll eventually come out with some glyphs that will be more useful for him and bump his value some. The way I see it now, there really aren't two glyphs that are always good for him, whereas Bruce usually has three good default choices (the grapple, the first aid kit, and the shurikens). So when it comes to future glyphs, if Bruce wants to carry them, he'll have to sacrifice something else currently giving him value, meaning his value as a unit should be about static.* For Dick, though, he's currently not getting great value out of the glyphs, so if one that works better for him comes along, he doesn't really have to sacrifice any current value to get value from it, so that's an overall gain in value for him. So I see a reason to give him a little bit of a bubble for upward mobility.

*Of course, we want to be very careful not to create too many situational glyphs, or the Batmen will end up having an answer to every single situation and be the ultimate Swiss army knife counterdraft, which probably would make them both worth more than their printed cost. We've gotta tread carefully on future Utility Glyphs for sure!

[IAmBatman]

Definitely appreciate the results! The one thing that's important to mention, though, is that we don't test C3G with figures from Valhalla. We really only test it with other C3G units (check out the Books of C3G Index thread for more units you can test with)!

I'd love to see you do some more tests here with other C3G units.

Also, I wasn't sure from reading the tests: what Utility Glyphs did you use with him?

Cheers,
Bats

Originally Posted by Ninja Status

Here is the report bat's, you do pretty good in them.

C3G Public Playtest Form

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: BATMAN

THEME TEST: Are there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that do not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character should be able to do? Also consider whether or not this character's powers should affect destructible objects.
There are none.

FUN TEST: Was the unit fun to play?
Yes, The unit was difficult in some parts of the game but overall came out a fun and balanced unit.

FUN OPPOSITION TEST: Was the unit acceptable to play against? Could it be considered annoying?
Yes. The unit was equally balanced against my figures and did not take out to much, nor to little.

USAGE TEST: Were all of the powers on this card used, or at least usable?
All of the powers were used at some point in the game, yes.

STRATEGY TEST: Does the unit offer any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game?
None that I could notice while playtesting.

BONDING TEST: Compare the unit card with all currently existing Bonding abilities. Are there any Bonding loops that do not stop appropriately?
Nope.

SYNERGIES TEST: Think of all the current cards that would have synergy with the unit card. Are there any factors that could break the game by making a unit too powerful or too weak?
There are none that I could think of.

POWER CHECK: When considering the test unit against all existing units (including released C3V and SoV units) and all glyphs, are there any powers that could be overamplified and break the game? Each power should define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and what conditions (if any) apply.
All powers look balanced and well put into text.

DRAFTING TEST: Is this unit worth drafting?
Yes.

MIRROR TEST: Consider the test unit against itself. Are there any loops that would upset the balance of the Game?
It would be an equal match.


ARMY TEST 1

The unit performed well on the map and against the opposing army. The unit is also equally balanced and used his powers well in each match up.
PASS : The unit performed to it's best without any loop holes in the card itself or the powers, and stats. He killed his points and died around halfway through the game (which I consider good.) He is not over powered and is balanced in every other way.


Map: Custom Map (balanced)
Units: Army 1: Batman, 10th regiment of foot x3, MDG, Marcu. VS Army 2: Havoc Eradicators x3, Me-Burq-Sa, Raelin RotV, Agent Carr.
Units left at the end.

Spoiler Alert!

Marcus with no wounds, a squad of 10th regiment, and Marcu with no wounds.

UNIT REPORT FOR BATMAN:

Spoiler Alert!

In the first round, the 10th advanced to the high ground with the move boost from Marcus. The Havoc moved forward quickly but got blown away from the 10th the next turn (a squad dying.) Me-Burq-Sa took the high ground but just hid and refrained from sniping for now. More 10th moved up but none could fire. The Havoc saw their chance and took it taking out a half squad of 10th.

In the second round, Batman runs onto the map to aid the soldiers but is to far away to attack and instead ducks behind a ruin. The Havoc fire at the 10th and kill a total of two 10th but end up blowing up one of their own. Batman runs and engages one Havoc and destroys the Marro. The Havoc dog pile the Bat but blocks all attacks. The 10th wait then fire on Raelin and inflict 2 wounds total. Me-Burq-Sa attacks from the high ground down on Batman and inflicts him with one wound.

In the third round, Batman (with only one wound) continues to attack and kills another Havoc. Me-Burq-Sa attacks and inflicts another wound on Batman. The 10th open fire and from Marcus's extra attack boost are able to kill off the flying bacon. The Havoc's attack and inflict 2 wounds on Batman. The Bat attacks again and kills another Havoc (only two more remaining.) Me-Burq-Sa attacks but fails to wound Batman. The 10th attack and wound the sniper with only one wound.

In the forth round, Batman takes his last stand and kills one of the last Havoc's. Me-Burq-Sa takes a shot and kills the Bat. The 10th open fire and finish off the Havoc but can't wound the sniper. Me-Burq-Sa takes a shot and kills a 10th. The 10th attack and kill the sniping Marro. Agent Carr (who remained in the starting zone the whole game) moves up and kills a 10th with his sword.

In the 5th round, The remaining 10th unleash hell and deal Agent Carr a total of 3 wounds. Agent Carr then kills another 10th. The 10th attack and wound Agent Carr with one wound. The Agent kills another 10th before death. The remaining 10th open fire and kill the agent winning the game.

ARMY TEST 2

PASS . The unit performed to his best in both matches, even though the second battle was a reverse the whip he did just as fine as in the first one.


Map: Custom Map(balanced.)
Units: Army 1: reverse the whip. VS Army 2: reverse the whip.
UNITS THAT SURVIVED:

Spoiler Alert!

Marcus with no wounds, Marcu with no wounds, and a squad and one 10th.

UNIT REPORT:

Spoiler Alert!

In round one, Batman heads towards the high ground. Raelin moves and takes her place behind a nearby tree. Batman slumps behind a couple of battlements and waits to attack. The Havocs move onto the middle of the map but don't have any line of sight on the Bat. Batman jumps down the cliff (taking no damage) and kills a Havoc. The Havocs quickly fight back and wound Batman with 2 wounds.

In round two, The 10th head out onto the map but are out of range. More Havoc move towards the fighting acrobatic Bat. Batman kills another Havoc while the 10th move towards his position. Me-Burq-Sa moves up the hill on his mount, takes his position, and kills a 10th. The 10th use wait then fire and kill 2 Havoc and wound the sniper with one wound. Agent Carr moves behind a ruin within Raelins aura.

In round three, Agent Carr moves farther onto the map but can't attack with his sword, uses his pistol but fails to wound Bat's. Batman disengages (no wounds taken) and attacks Carr dealing Carr 2 wounds. Agent Carr uses his sword and deals Batman 2 more wounds. The 10th open fire on the agent but whiff. The Havoc move at the 10th and manage to kill two of them. The 10th use their wait then fire+height and take down 2 more Havoc.

In round four, The 10th stab a Havoc and kill the Agent. The remaining Havoc attempt to kill the Bat but their attacks are blocked. The Bat kills off another Havoc. Me-Burq-Sa takes his shot and with his stare manages to finally kill the Batman. The 10th fire and kill the sniper while dealing Raelin 1 wound. The last Havoc fires and manages to kill two 10th regiment without getting blown up.

In round five, Raelin flies in and kills a 10th. The remaining 10th open fire and kill the kyrie. The last Havoc does the exact same attack with killing two 10th without dying. The 10th angry, kill the last Havoc winning the game.

I hoped you liked it, if I can do anymore tests please tell me I want to contribute more. Also sorry for the shortness of each game hopefully that doesn't matter.
~NS

[IAmBatman]

He never responded to me about which glyphs Batman actually used in these tests, so I'm just posting it ....

Originally Posted by Ninja Status

Here is the report revised with the information that you need.

Here is the report: revised.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT: BATMAN

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
PASS

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
PASS

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
PASS

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
PASS

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
FAIL: A few certain Glyphs the unit would become to powerful and end up over throwing the game such as, Gerda, Astrid, Wannok, and Dagmar.

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
PASS

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
PASS

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
PASS

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
PASS

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
PASS
_____________________________________________________________


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? PASS
- What should be the unit's point value? 160
- Give a brief overview. He was fun to play against and to play in your army. He is fast his powers fit his character and all his stats, powers, and abilities are balanced in every way. Overall good unit.
Map: Carnival of Carnage
Units: Batman, Captain Cold, 5th Precinct Beat Cops x3-445 points 11 hexes. VS. Bane, Gorilla City Warriors x2-440 points 7 hexes.
FIGURES THAT SURVIVED:

Spoiler Alert!

Batman with a total of 3 wounds.

UNIT REPORT:

Spoiler Alert!

Batman and the 5th Precinct Beat Cops moved out onto the map with the Cops adjacent to Batman for their power. The Gorilla Warriors moved out and killed 1 squad of the Cop's. Captain Cold then rolled in and killed off a Gorilla with his Cold Gun special attack. He did this while the Gorilla warriors attempted to wound batman, he then killed 2 more Warriors while Batman got 2 wounds from the gorilla's. The cop's killed another Gorilla warrior when Bane came into the battle. Bane used his back breaker power and ended up killing Captain Cold by first wounding and then killing automatically, batman then attacked and inflicted 3 wounds on Bane. Bane then used his Venom injection and got lucky by wounding Bats with 3 wounds. The gorilla warriors then attacked Batman but thanks to the cops he refrained from taking any wounds and instead 3 cops died. Batman after that attacked and killed Bane and went on a killing spree on the gorilla warriors and killed one. The last of the Gorilla warriors attacked Batman but the rest of the cops got the hit instead. Bat's then attacked and killed the last of the gorilla warriors.

_____________________________________________________________


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? PASS
- What should be the unit's point value? 160
- Give a brief overview. Batman again was victorious in the match up with reverse the whip. The figures were however played differently than in the first battle with Bane killing more and with Batman not slaying bane.
Map: Carnival of Carnage
Units: Reverse the whip.
FIGURES WHO SURVIVED:

Spoiler Alert!

4 Gorilla Warriors.

UNIT REPORT:

Spoiler Alert!

Batman ran into the map again with the cops and Bane this time went in second. Bane attacked and killed a total of 3 cops in the first round while he wounded Batman with 2 wounds, bane also received 2 wounds from Batman attacking back. In the second round the warriors moved in and got to height, they then assaulted the cops and killed a squad while Bane attacked and inflicted another wound on Batman bringing him up to a total of 3 wounds. Batman and Bane went back and forth at each other and Bane this time delivered the killing blow but Batman did come close to killing Bane and brought him up to 4 wounds. In the next round Captain Cold gained height as well and froze bane dealing him 2 more wounds which killed him. The warriors in rage then charged at Captain Cold and dealt him 3 wounds. The Cops defended Captain but could only kill two warriors, the warriors ended up killing Captain Cold and the rest of the Cops winning the game.

Let me know if there is anything I missed.
~NS

Still looking for one more test here.

[IAmBatman]

Thanks, man! Looks great!

Originally Posted by darkraptor5413

[IAmBatman]

Right now I'm between 170 and 180 on him. Hopefully we'll get some more tests still to help nail that down. I think he's over 160 for sure.

[Hahma]

Yeah, over 160

[IAmBatman]

Perfect! Thanks!

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

Whoops! How did I miss that? Thanks!

[IAmBatman]

And this definitely makes me think 180 would be too high. I've got one more test coming from Arch-vile, so I'll wait for that, but I'm really narrowing down on 170 right now.

[johnny139]

170 would be great - he'd pair up with Damian for an even 250.

[IAmBatman]

Ooh, and then you could throw in Bruce 2.0 for a nice even 500.

[IAmBatman]

Ooh, that was a rough one!

Thanks!
Bats

Originally Posted by Arch-vile

Here is part two of my playtest. This test wasn't too helpful in pinpointing his cost, but at least I found out he doesn't help Iron Patriot much!


C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Batman (Dick Grayson)


Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No?Yes
- What should be the unit's point value? 160
- Give a brief overview. Iron Patriot is weak enough defensively that Dick’s detective work isn’t super helpful for him. Dick is better as a counter draft to figures like Joker, with Vigilante helping figures like Alfred and Robin. Nite Owl would be a good partner as well. While Dick is good at taking down squad figures, a single attack of 5 just doesn’t cut in in C3G. He needs a sidekick or some other help to be worth his points.
Map: Under the El (Electrified Track glyph)
Units: Batman (Dick), Iron Patriot, Green Lantern (Guy Gardner), Venom C3G (1000) vs Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Hawkmen of Thanagar x3, Flash (Barry Allen) (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Pre-game thoughts: Iron Patriot looked like a great matchup thanks to Dick’s ability removing the negative effects of Chaotic Leadership. The Hawkmen are a strong, fast army though, so Iron Patriot’s New Avengers may not be able to defeat them. Dick should do decently, being able to move around a lot. Dick equips the Bat-grapple and the Police Scanner, hoping to move with the Hawkmen.

Round 1: Iron Patriot wins initiative, and moves Guy Gardner and Batman forward. Using Master Motivator with his double attack, Iron Patriot and Guy take out 3 Hawkmen and put 2 wounds on Hawkman. The Hawkmen move forward, putting a wound on Iron Patriot and forcing Guy to burn a battery marker due to a 5-skull attack. The Round ends with Guy overextending (taking a wound) to put 2 wounds on Hawkgirl while Hawkgirl flies away and wounds Venom. Batman has yet to enter the battle, yet has moved around thanks to his Police Scanner and Iron Patriot.

Round 2: Guy brings Hawkman to 4 wounds through overextending, but the Hawkmen and Hawkman overwhelm him and he is destroyed. Batman takes a wound from a Hawkmen’s attack, but flees from the rest of the birdmen thanks to his acrobatics. Venom brings Hawkgirl to 4 wounds, but Hawkgirl brings Venom to 3 wounds.

Round 3: Batman’s attack is blocked by Hawkman, then Hawkman takes down Venom after Venom kills another Thanagarian. (Venom never made his Symbiotic-Senses roll). Batman is able to use his acrobatics to avoid the second attack of Hawkman/girl and Flash.

Round 4: Hawkman wins initiative and KOs Batman.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Hawkman w/4 wounds, Hawkgirl w/4 wounds, Flash w/0 wounds, 2 Hawkmen of Thanagar

[IAmBatman]

OK, I feel really good about 170 giving him enough cushion for when more helpful Utility Glyphs come along! I propose we move to Final Editing at 170 points!