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#361
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
I'm going to go ahead and call this vote to move back to Design.
At the very least, I'd like for us to remove negation from the card so that we don't need to be referencing it in our Master Set. Something along these lines should work with minimal changes: Quote:
That said, I'm not opposed to removing fiddliness in the power even more. The life mechanic doesn't feel strictly necessary now that destruction at the end of the round is guaranteed--I know that there's been support for how it synergizes with the MacDirks and Evar Scarcarver, but I think that we should consider dropping the mechanic to further streamline the power. This would also make it work considerably better with standalone Unique Heroes, since placing Order Markers on them during their revival round is no longer a significant risk. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#362
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
One thing that stood out with the previous version (including making it once per game and/or removing the destruction of an HSG) was it didn't give the opponent any interesting choices beyond maybe trying to kill them before they brought a Hero back. That's where our further redesign comes in. I will post it shortly...
Captain Stupendous and I spent some time discussing the issues with the current/soon-to-be-previous (we hope) version and working on a new power(s). Here are the highlights of what this new card accomplishes (he can chime in if I leave anything out, but I'm sure he'll share his thoughts either way). Guiding Lights: The power name speaks to the guiding (pun intended) thematic principle behind the redesign. In no way, shape, or form did the previous version feel like it was guiding anything. Once per game: Although the previous version had a limit (usually 2, sometimes more with glyphs that bring figures back), it necessitated a negation clause, which by and large was disliked. This change gets rid of that text and sets a hard limit. Unique Human Heroes: As I'll note with other changes, some figures would be problematic with this version. Restricting it to Humans solves that, and also lets us remove the small or medium limitation, making Sir Dupuis happy! Revenant: Giving the figure a designation helps streamline some of the other text and is a nice callback to the ancient artifact glyph. Remove all wound markers: Leaving the figure with 1 Life was a wordy patch to previous issues, while simultaneously leaving the revived figure vulnerable to being killed easily and making the whole affair pointless. Since this figure is now at full health, Raelin reared her ugly head, hence the aforementioned Human-only. In some way it's sort of sad to lose the Alastair/MacDirks and Scarcarver synergy, but at the same time with full life you can better make use of the full figure and all its powers, so they're not actually left out in the cold. Place the Revenant adjacent to a Soul Guide: Since the power is once-per-game, it's not necessary to sacrifice a Guide. More on this below. After revealing an Order Marker...: Bonding! HSGs move first, then the Hero, who they're actually guiding now. Again, more below. Last Will: Splitting the power into two helps it flow better and it's easier to make sense of the timing and intent of this particular sentence. After taking a turn...: Here's where the last two points about Guiding Lights come in. By not sacrificing a Soul Guide, you keep both as the place for the OMs for bonding as well as options for where your Revenant can end its turn. If it doesn't do so safely, well, its Last Will was fulfilled and the whole crew fades away into the æther. This applies to any turns the Hero takes, whether it's through Guiding Lights, some other form of Bonding, or just getting its own OMs. This is also what gives the opponent some agency in disrupting your plans. If the Hero is too tough, taking out the two Soul Guides means it will follow them after its next turn. If you could somehow separate them and lock them down, that would also do the trick! Levitation: This was floated as a possibility before and we think it helps this version for a few reasons. First, it removes a bunch of words from the card, which is always nice, especially in this Master Set. Second, Velkhor is already looking like one Stealth Flying unit for the set, we don't necessarily need two. Third, along with once-per-game and the Revenant needing to actually be guided by the HSGs, keeping them terrestrial helps keep their points in check. I'm looking forward to discussion of this version of the card! Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 Last edited by NecroBlade; September 11th, 2021 at 05:21 PM. |
#363
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
Don't really have much to say on that version other than I like it, but it feels pretty wordy and complex for what we're aiming for. Although I can't think of much to simplify it. Maybe just removing Last Will?
Mechanically though I'm a big fan, I get what it's trying to do and it sells the theme well. I'm not super keen on Humans only but I get why you've gone for it. An issue that might crop up is Finn and Thorgrim and their spirits. Also wish they had Stealth Flying but again, I get why you've chosen Levitation instead and it's still fitting. |
#364
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
Firstly, I apologize if this post seems a bit scattered: it's late where I am and I wanted to post these notes before shutting down my computer. Going through by points:
A lot of the feedback has been that the card is cool but difficult to make full use of because it's so risky to place OMs on a 1-life Unique Hero, which naturally pushes them more towards bonding and weird edge cases. Making the hero revive at full life fully addresses that from my perspective, and the guaranteed destruction at the end of the round makes me suspect that the price bump won't be too bad even with the better compatibility with typical armies. I think that change, combined with the once-per-game revival, is a refined version of the card's existing vision that Pod 0 designed (note that I especially don't agree with every choice that was made, but we also don't want to reinvent the wheel that previous members made unless it's necessary--wanting the Guides to be more active doesn't hit the notes for me from what we've seen). As an alternative suggestion that would still allow for the Guides to take a more active presence on the board throughout the game, we could let them choose the "Revenant" at the start of the game and still let them use the revival during one round later in the game. Then, to start advancing them throughout the entire game: Quote:
Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#365
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
@Astroking112
I'm having a bit of a hard time visualizing exactly what your suggested alternative would look like, would you mind throwing together a quick draft?
Personally, I really like Necro's draft. The biggest loss in my mind is stealth flying, but I think the tradeoff is well worth it. |
#366
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
I can respond in more detail to Astro's points later, but for now I'll just say that I still think the version that
@NecroBlade
and I came up with is the most fun, thematic, and intuitive iteration we've seen yet. I would prefer a couple small tweaks, as seen below:
Quote:
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#367
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
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The talk of adding movement bonding or something else to spice up the design was just further brainstorming to give them a more active role, even though I don't think that it's needed here. Changing the trigger for destruction to be after any turn rather than just the hero's turn does help a lot with reigning in cases like Dienekes or other passive heroes, but it doesn't really address the brunt of my concerns. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#368
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
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What GenCon taught me was to assume only one skull on three dice! |
#369
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
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Also, since the hero now comes back with full life, there's not really much point in attacking the revived hero either. Basically, the best strategy when playing against the soul guides is to just ignore them and try to weather the damage from the returned hero as best you can by just playing very defensively/stay out of their way until the round is over. Which just doesn't sound like much fun to me. With Necro's iteration, targeting and destroying the soul guides becomes critical to limiting their effectiveness. Opponents actually have a goal to pursue other than simple avoidance. |
#370
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
What if we go with Astro's design but the Revenant Hero dies when the Soulguides do? Give them a fairly low base Defense for a unique squad of 2 (so maybe 3 or 4 as stated), so that they have to be protected? Then at least we can test them with screen. Maybe bump their points to make it less economical to use them with screens (without pricing them out of some degree of usefulness).
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Still a fairly simple trigger, while keeping the Soul Guides relevant enough. My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#371
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
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#372
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Re: [Pod 0] Honored Soul-Guides (Lantern Geists) - Design
Haven't tried playing it, but I think the question is less of whether it will or won't work and whether Heracles/Drake can effectively win the game on their own. Rats/Soul Guides surely aint gonna do it after all
My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
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