4th>10th

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by dok

So much of our thinking on this is colored by the figure limits that are way more popular now than they were when you made this thread.

Agreed.

10th get more out of Raelin and other support than 4th do. 4th are best with just more 4th. Literally anything else makes them (relatively) weaker.

Disagreed. They get the same benefit from Raelin/Marcus/whoever. Only if you plan on running Raelin and end up facing a lot of melee and the point totals line up right, are the 10th gonna be better.

350 point 20 figures? 420 point full startzones? 4th are still awfully good in those cases. We just don't see those.

460 points 18 figures?


4x Mass 280
Q9 (Or Raelin + Marcus) 460


At other point totals 10-20 points difference means you can have the same thing as a Redcoat army plus Isamu or Marcu.


Remember I'm not even trying to argue that 4th are better anymore. I just think that people seem to forget that 4th already have all the same synergy bonuses... they just happen to get back 1 of their defense dice if Raelin and Marcus die.

[Dysole]

I mean I made Day 2 of Gencon trying out this idea by running 4th x2, Raelin, Templar x2, Eldgrim. I don't know if it would have been better with 10th since I basically trade Eldgrim for Marcu which might've mattered on some margins, but them having 3 defense when Raelin died definitely was a factor in at least one of my games.

~Dysole, who admittedly made Day 2 by the skin of her teeth with that build

[dok]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Disagreed. They get the same benefit from Raelin/Marcus/whoever. Only if you plan on running Raelin and end up facing a lot of melee and the point totals line up right, are the 10th gonna be better.

They get the same bonuses but also lose their valiant defense. Less of a net benefit equals less benefit.

Melee is prevalent enough now that I don't think you can hand wave away the benefit of melee defense 1. And bayonet usually comes up a few times a game.

Originally Posted by Jexik

460 points 18 figures?


4x Mass 280
Q9 (Or Raelin + Marcus) 460

I mean, it's not bad? It's maybe better than 10th can manage at that point total, although I wouldn't sleep on 10th x3, Raelin, Marcus, Marro Warriors. That's worse in the head to head matchup, but probably better against bonding melee.

Anyway, my point was not that you can't find point totals where a 4th build is better than a 10th build in some matchups, even if there's filler involved. My point is that 4th always wants more 4th and anything else is worse than more 4th.

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Wait a min....
Is dok actually agreeing with me about something??!!??...
10th > 4th

[Jexik]

Originally Posted by dok

Anyway, my point was not that you can't find point totals where a 4th build is better than a 10th build in some matchups, even if there's filler involved. My point is that 4th always wants more 4th and anything else is worse than more 4th.

I think using a suiciding special attacker or hero killer is a viable strategy for the 4th at lower hex totals. It also helps smooth out the PK matchup, which is a good excuse for 10th over 4th generally.


On a recent podcast the guys said that Alastair and 4x Mass was the best 4th army for 4x400, but I think 4x Mass + a Fen Hydra could be pretty scary. I don't think we always have to hamstring them into being full valiant.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I think using a suiciding special attacker or hero killer is a viable strategy for the 4th at lower hex totals. It also helps smooth out the PK matchup, which is a good excuse for 10th over 4th generally.


On a recent podcast the guys said that Alastair and 4x Mass was the best 4th army for 4x400, but I think 4x Mass + a Fen Hydra could be pretty scary. I don't think we always have to hamstring them into being full valiant.

The only time I played general wars since 2012 I played 4th with Nilfheim. I beat knights with it . Still, tactically having to lead with the nonvaliant stuff limits you. My one loss in the event (to a PK/Mezzo/Hydra army) was in part because he could so easily predict my Nilf opening.