Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[nyys]

Well then this is a no-brainer.

to review Trespasser.

[Dignan]

Updated 7/31/11

Logged Dignan NtI Hellsgate
Logged 1Mmirg YtR Trespasser
Logged mad_wookiee YtR Trespasser
Logged nyys YtR Trespasser
Trespasser moved to review.

Maps pending acceptance for review:

None

Maps currently being reviewed:

Jack of Spades by GameBear
YES = 4 (1Mmirg, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, lonewolf) ; NO = 1 (Dignan) ; PENDING = 1 (mad_wookiee)

Bad Moon Rising by GameBear
YES = 4 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus, 1Mmirg, nyys) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 2 (lonewolf, mad_wookiee)

Hellsgate by mad_wookiee
YES = 0 ; NO = 1 (Dignan) ; PENDING = 4 (1Mmirg, lonewolf, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys) * Removed mad_wookiee as map creator

Blacktop by dok
YES = 0 ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 6 (1Mmirg, Dignan, lonewolf, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, mad_wookiee)

Trespasser by Dignan
YES = 0 ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 5 (1Mmirg, lonewolf, mad_wookiee, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys) * Removed Dignan as map creator

[1Mmirg]

I'm on my way out of town for a bit, so these reviews won't be as developed as usual. I've had a chance to put in a fair number of games on Hell's Gate and Blacktop. Both are definitely solid maps and ones I'd absolutely use again. That said, each have issues as well:

Hell's Gate is a really beautiful and masterful map.

Split start zones make this game require a bit more thought even before the game begins. (And gaming practices for the glyphs have an impact as well--do you know ahead of time? After the first initiative roll? or are the glyphs blind? This kind of map makes that matter quite a bit.)

The initial climb is a challenge--getting out of your start zone takes some effort and getting up to height isn't immediate (though height isn't too far away either).

Melee definitely struggles a bit on this map, though having the road and some decent LOS blockers helps. (One game, my opponent ran his Iron Golem straight into my start zone, ignoring my AE and others on his way in, and just hacked down my Q10 before I could adjust my OMs--I like that this kind of thing is possible and that I was still able to come back from that kind of loss as well.)

The glyphs (as Dignan has shared) aren't quite as equally deployed as they initially appear. Most of the time holding the right glyph is easier than the left, though MW has made a smart choice, imo, by making the left also be the higher point of elevation.

I found a lot of work is done on the near 7-hex and around the glyphs. The road down the middle is useful, but doesn't get to quite enough places to be really useful. With mixed armies, this proved okay, with a melee heavy army, it was a challenge.

The ladders help to speed up some points of access. The water helps to keep things interesting and does help vipers out a touch (though not quite enough to swing any victories).

Another challenge to this map is the narrowness. While it wasn't easy to set up a pod (thanks to battlements and how relatively close each side was to the other, etc.), if you got a strong pod set up, they had quite a lot of field of domination. The map actually plays smaller than it appears (at least it played smaller than I expected).

In my experience, this map led to really active and solid games the vast majority of the time. Things were never boring and there was usually something worth doing and some position shifting, etc. seemed almost constant (well, except for the 4th, once they found a couple of holds).

This is a map I would be comfortable seeing at a tourney, but it wouldn't be among my top choices. The glyphs don't feel quite right and if you end up with a dud on your right, you feel like you're trying to make up for that all game--not that you're out, but just that you're working extra hard. Pods do seem to work a bit more than I'd like. Movement, esp for melee, is a bit tough. And getting rocked back to your start zone is a beast--it's just hard to come back. I found the map a bit unforgiving, though I have to admit that I had some big comebacks on it as well.

This is a top quality map and it's one that I will use again. In my opinion, it is as close to the quality of the Battlefields as you can come without quite being there.

I regretfully vote NO to induct Hell's Gate into the BoV.

---

Blacktop is a very different type of map. It's in the family of maps like Fossil and is a fun map, no question.

My biggest issue with it, honestly, is it's structure. Maybe it's just me, but this is the kind of map that feels like it's pushed its limits just too far. Repeatedly, I find myself placing figures on to shifting pieces, catching glimpses of the table underneath, and even a few times disrupting the board (slightly, I'll admit) because there just wasn't enough supporting pieces.

dok has again tried to take an incredibly tough assortment of sets to create a solid map. And as a map, a battlefield, it is solid. As a structure, I wasn't always sure.

Setting that aside, the map is fun and challenging. Distances are very precisely counted out, for movement, for range, etc. You always feel (well, I did) like the mapmaker has purposefully decided that move 4 unit should be able to go here, move 5 to here, and 6 to here, etc. I loved the LOS work. The central high point if blocked from the edges. Each high point had clear limits as to what it could or could not see. The glyph points were low, but reasonably protected.

This is a smart and well crafted map. I'm not sure I agree with what I saw as a preference for range 7 units over range 6 (sure, it's nice to balance things against the 4th, but AGs and others really suffer). And while I like seeing the Aubriens able to reach critical targets, I'm not so sure the Krav or Blasts need the help.

I like that the roads are more useful. They touch up against some of the most critical points. I was happy to see how well even the zombies did on this map. That was a plus.

Like Hell's Gate, if the question was, is this an excellent use of the resources, I could only vote Yes. I don't think I'm aware of any map using the exact resources of either of these that is better. These are incredibly smart builds.

If the question is, would I want to play this map at a tourney, that's where I have to say that I'd have a slight preference not to play Hell's Gate, while Blacktop I would be more neutral toward. I'm bothered a bit by the difference between the large tree and the stalagmite (I wish there were enough pieces so that it could be raised up a level and make the sight blocking more even), I'm bothered by the ease of a strong opening Zelrig attack, I'm bothered by some of the structural issues (though these aren't too bad), I'm bothered by some of the range and movement preferences the map seems to support. None of these are too big, but together they make me nervous as a judge.

I wish with each of these maps that I could offer an "abstain" or a B++ grade or something. Pass or fail is much more difficult. Why not a 3 of 4 stars (or order markers ...)?

But I digress. I believe that Blacktop is a map worth seeing at events and while it may have some issues, I think they are all fairly small (or related to units, like Zelrig, that has a price that includes a first OM hit on some maps) or small enough anyhow that I feel justified in voting YES to induct Blacktop into the BoV.

[mad_wookiee]

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

This is a map I would be comfortable seeing at a tourney, but it wouldn't be among my top choices. The glyphs don't feel quite right and if you end up with a dud on your right, you feel like you're trying to make up for that all game--not that you're out, but just that you're working extra hard. Pods do seem to work a bit more than I'd like. Movement, esp for melee, is a bit tough. And getting rocked back to your start zone is a beast--it's just hard to come back. I found the map a bit unforgiving, though I have to admit that I had some big comebacks on it as well.

There are a few design considerations on this map that do reflect my personal play style. The glyph thing is one of them. I'll admit that part of me feels that, if you end up with a dud, then that glyph probably shouldn't have been in the pool in the first place. (I like the Gencon list precisely because it's hard to pull a dud off of that list, while also not running the risk of anything particularly overpowering show up.) Beyond that, though - and this gets to another part of your comment - I rabidly dislike blind glyphs. I think that glyphs should be played power-side up unless there's some compelling reason for them to be face down, such as Proftaka in the mix. Playing revealed glyphs from a balanced pool on this map makes for a much better experience imho. Treasure glyphs have also worked well (also revealed).

I agree that the map is kind of unforgiving. To be honest, that was something I wanted out of the map, so to hear that you found it so is a good thing in my book. I find myself lately trying to push the envelope of what a map demands of a player. This is one that demands a lot of decisions and can really punish you for making the wrong one, starting with deciding where you're committing your forces. I can see why some may not want that in a tournament map, but for me, it's part of what I'm aiming for.

Thanks for the review, to both 1Mmirg and Dignan - always appreciated.

[UtahScott]

Post-GenCon, and I've begun searching out maps for NHSD.

I hope Black Gold Jack of Spades & Bad Moon Rising votes can be finalized in September.



(JoS was nominated last November, FWIW. Wonder if that's a record length... )

[mad_wookiee]

Black Gold has already completed the process, I believe. Jack of Spades is the one currently closest to finalizing, and I'm hoping to have my review completed over the weekend.

[UtahScott]

Originally Posted by mad_wookiee

Jack of Spades is the one currently closest to finalizing, and I'm hoping to have my review completed over the weekend.

I meant this, sorry.

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by UtahScott

(JoS was nominated last November, FWIW. Wonder if that's a record length... )

That is on me! Gencon is over....BoV back in focus.

[mad_wookiee]

Jack of Spades by GameBear

Jack of Spades is a unique map using 1 BftU, 1 MtCB, and 1 TJ. It goes without saying that, first, this is a bizarre combo of sets, and second, that if anyone can pull this one off, it's Gamebear. I'll say up front that this isn't a combo that I'd choose to work with for any reason other than the sheer challege of it. The Marvel set just doesn't offer that much out of the box once you exclude the warehouse ruin. On the other hand, it remains relatively easy to find, so I'm glad to see maps using it that are available to the community.

On the table, this map looks, well, odd to say the least. I won't go as far as Dignan and call it ugly - to be honest, it started to grow on me after having it up for a bit - but my initial reaction to it was negative. As I think everyone has stated so far, that's not something that Gamebear can be faulted for, as it's just a limitation of these particular sets. When gray is the predominant color in the palette, it's going to look a bit bland. Is it the best that can be done with this combo? Quite possibly, but the bottom line is that this map just doesn't have the wow factor that I like to see in a map.

One of the benefits of this combo is that it offers some intriguing options for gameplay. Shadow plus jungle gives advancing figures significant coverage as they traverse the map. The predominant feature of the map is clearly the large plateau in the center. Using the shadow/jungle combo to aid melee figures in attempting to close with that plateau is potent, offsetting the relatively few effective LoS blockers on the map. And it's important that those paths work as intended, because one of the primary benefits of the D&D set, the rock outcrops, are left in the box in lieu of adding more shadow tiles to those paths. The result is a hefty +2 to defense for figures defending against ranged attacks from the center heights, which is an important balancing element to the map.

As a result, the map plays pretty well. Games on it were usually tense with a lot of jockeying for position around the center heights. If I had a complaint about the gameplay, it's that games on this map were fairly predictable. The disadvantage of having such a strongly defined objective is that opportunities for emerging strategies were limited - the heights are so important to this map that you simply must contest them. The glyphs were not much of a factor in our games, particularly when ranged units were involved - any figure taking the glyph would fall under heavy fire the next turn from the forces on the high ground. This was where I really wished the rock outcrops had been used - if figures had a more difficult time drawing LoS to the glyphs from the high ground, then the decision level would have been increased for the map and more interesting gameplay would have resulted.

One thing that really bothers me, though, about the center heights is the difficulty of removing units from the fifth-level perch, particularly for certain matchups. The first thing that I noticed when looking at the build instructions was that the left-hand perch is within one move for Raelin from the start zone. In addition, it commands excellent LoS for most of the center part of the map. Kicking her off of this space can be rather difficult, especially for certain builds. Any unit of height 4 or less cannot engage a figure on that hex. That includes squads such as Gruts, Dividers, and Axegrinders, to name a few commonly played units. The Axegrinders have it particularly rough on this map - the center heights sit three levels above the table, which means that Axegrinders coming along the shadow path cannot engage enemy units that are sniping at them from above. In my games, this typically resulted in a loss of somewhere between 5 and 10 attacks in a given match, where figures were on adjoining hexes but not engaged due to the height of the hills.

I've been torn on this map for about a week. Having a map using these sets in the BoV would be a benefit to the tournament community at large. It does a great job at offering some innovative uses of terrain and showcases one way to change up the ranged/melee dynamic. As for gameplay, on the one hand, for most matchups it's a fun and engaging map that, while I wish offered a stronger decision point, remains enjoyable and balanced. On the other hand, for a few specific builds, it can be a frustratingly negative experience. This creates a problem for me as a tournament planner. While these squads can and do win on this map, it's an uphill battle - pun intended. (I will state though that I've never won a game on this map playing Axegrinders against a ranged opponent.) The advantage that the fifth level hex confers against these units is strong. Having been on the receiving end of a tournament loss caused by height differential on a map, I can say that it's a strongly negative experience, creating the impression that the loss was to the map and not to the other player. I want to avoid that situation whenever possible.

At the end of the day, the question that I find myself asking is this: would I feature this map at an event that I'm planning, particularly if the format would welcome a build including Axegrinders, Gruts, or Dividers? And the answer that I'm left with is a solid no, regardless of how good it may be for other squads. If the height issue were addressed for those squads, removing the fifth level hex and possibly elevating some of the first level shadow spaces, then I could easily see myself answering the other way. Given that, I have to answer the same way to this particular vote and say NO to inducting Jack of Spades into the BoV.

[mad_wookiee]

Updated 8/21/11

Logged 1Mmirg NtI Hellsgate.
Logged 1Mmirg YtI Blacktop.
Logged mad_wookiee NtI Jack of Spades.
Hellsgate removed from review.
Jack of Spades removed from review.

Maps pending acceptance for review:

None

Maps currently being reviewed:

Bad Moon Rising by GameBear
YES = 4 (Dignan, Matthias Maccabeus, 1Mmirg, nyys) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 2 (lonewolf, mad_wookiee)

Blacktop by dok
YES = 1 (1Mmirg) ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 5 (Dignan, lonewolf, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, mad_wookiee)

Trespasser by Dignan
YES = 0 ; NO = 0 ; PENDING = 5 (1Mmirg, lonewolf, mad_wookiee, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys) * Removed Dignan as map creator

[Dignan]

Maps currently being reviewed:

Blacktop by dok

dok has been a great champion for the cause of making tournament worthy maps with the most recent (and readily available) master sets. Blacktop follows that pattern creating a great little map out of 1 BftU, 1 Marvel, and 1 RttFF.

The map is well laid out and shows the polish of a veteran map maker. The trees and rocks are placed to effectively limit line of sight from some of the key areas. The central high ground has a dominate position but is limited by the nearby rocks and trees. The road allows quick access from the start zone to the flanks (and glyphs).

The glyph placement makes sense and seems equally contestable from both start zones. Holding the glyph becomes a difficult matter and fighting over strong glyphs is fast paced and fierce. I do find the map to be a little cramped around the glyphs, but that's difficult to avoid with the terrain sets being used.

Aesthetically, the map is a little lacking. I'm not sure if there is anything to be done about that. The hexes one has to work with here just don't have great visual appeal. The map is dominated by unnatural looking shades of gray.

That said, the gameplay is very good on this map and it probably represents one of the best maps made using this combination of terrain. I think that this map fills an important gap in the tournament scene (especially for new TDs). YES to induct.

[lonewolf]

Bad Moon Rising by GameBear

Finally!

I feel like I have played enough on this map to give an evaluation. My first (and likely only) complaint about this map is the use of the castle bases. At first, I didn't realize that that those were the pieces being used, then I decided not to use them, and finally I realized I had to use them to support the map, but used some spare regular tiles instead because I didn't want to go track down some bases. I did verify that the bases work, but preferred to substitute tiles from my collection to occupy those spaces. Obviously using the bases wasn't the first choice, but due to the materials available in these sets it is a very creative way to create elevation with those sets.

The map does seem a little plain to me at first glance. Like many others, battlements put on single hexes also tend to annoy me. Thankfully this only happens on the two highest hexes in the center of the map and they are surrounded by the small rock outcroppings to offer some protection. We only knocked them over a couple times!

I feel like the game play on this map is balanced.....glyphs are accessible to both sides and in reasonable locations. Melee units should be able to use the limited terrain along with the shadow spaces to approach melee without getting devastated. Rats can block up the center section some, but the sides are open enough to prevent bottle necks. Overall I like this map and feel it plays well, especially with these terrain sets. I vote YES to induct Bad Moon Rising!