The Workbook of Uruk Hai (Saruman's)

[caps]

That's a pretty cool idea. Like the mezodemon exo skeletons but more restrained; maybe only one or two markers per army card?

[Shiftrex]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

That's a pretty cool idea. Like the mezodemon exo skeletons but more restrained; maybe only one or two markers per army card?

Reading my mind, makes them tough and nasty but not too terrible to deal with

[infectedsloth]

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

They seem to have a track record of doing poorly vs cavalry charges and mounted units.

Calvary versus infantry is inherently in calvary favor. That doesn't mine it's a defining characteristic of Uruk Hi. I hardly think one skirmish where they we're tired and surrounded is enough to say they have a poor track record against cavalry.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

They pack the traditional weakness to sunlight of course.

Not true. They are much more resistant to the sun then other breeds of orcs. Recall that Aragron was amazed that with how they traveled in sunlight, and that the orcs of Grishnakh and the Misty Mountain were lagging behind while they Uruks jeered at the for their relative weakness to sunlight

I'll be honest I don't like the direction of this discussion. This guys carried the hobbits as a by product of their mission. It is not one of their defining characteristics. They didn't even like carrying them, and had the hobbits run at times. While playing you'd have these guys carry around dwarfs or rats. That would be a huge thematic disconnect while playing.

I never viewed the band that was tasked with capturing the hobbits as scouts. They we're fierce warriors seemingly indistinguishable from other Uruk's. Calling them scouts gives an them an odd connotation.

[Shiftrex]

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

Calvary versus infantry is inherently in calvary favor. That doesn't mine it's a defining characteristic of Uruk Hi. I hardly think one skirmish where they we're tired and surrounded is enough to say they have a poor track record against cavalry.

Not true. They are much more resistant to the sun then other breeds of orcs. Recall that Aragron was amazed that with how they traveled in sunlight, and that the orcs of Grishnakh and the Misty Mountain were lagging behind while they Uruks jeered at the for their relative weakness to sunlight

I'll be honest I don't like the direction of this discussion. This guys carried the hobbits as a by product of their mission. It is not one of their defining characteristics. They didn't even like carrying them, and had the hobbits run at times. While playing you'd have these guys carry around dwarfs or rats. That would be a huge thematic disconnect while playing.

I never viewed the band that was tasked with capturing the hobbits as scouts. They we're fierce warriors seemingly indistinguishable from other Uruk's. Calling them scouts gives an them an odd connotation.

I was just giving more of a word vomit discussion of their appearance in the fellowship. The initial 'scouting' party was reinforced and still got completely wiped out by Eomer's group, I didn't think it was a defining moment but it makes it so that they probably didn't fair any better or worse than a similar group of men would have.

My autocorrect is horrible, it should be 'LACK' not 'PACK.' They are fine in the sunlight, which is why they don't have the ability that is tying a lot of the Moria/Cave Trolls together (cave dweller).

I would argue that it WAS their defining characteristic and that they WERE scouts. They are specifically referenced as scouts and Ugluk is referenced as the Uruk that led the Uruk scouts. This is in plain language, as well as the information that Saruman and Sauron both had many types of units in his force to include infantry and scouts, there is a large difference between the two types of units. Scouts are generally considered to be mobile and less heavily armed than infantry, capable of something like quick engagement or recon or "grabbing" something. These guys were not the Uruk-hai that stormed helm's deep or else we might have seen more than just Boromir die in an outnumbered encounter in the woods.

If the theme of carrying your own figures around the board doesn't work for you, honestly it could be renamed "escort" to show that the band is just moving you quicker, then we could easily go back to an earlier wording I suggested that made it so you could only grab an enemy figure that fit the bill. Much less useful on the battlefield or in a game but it fits the theme.

[caps]

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

I'll be honest I don't like the direction of this discussion. This guys carried the hobbits as a by product of their mission. It is not one of their defining characteristics. They didn't even like carrying them, and had the hobbits run at times. While playing you'd have these guys carry around dwarfs or rats. That would be a huge thematic disconnect while playing.

We can name it to imply they are dragging the creatures as often as carrying them. I don't think the disconnect is that huge.

What would you propose instead?

Originally Posted by infectedsloth

I never viewed the band that was tasked with capturing the hobbits as scouts. They we're fierce warriors seemingly indistinguishable from other Uruk's. Calling them scouts gives an them an odd connotation.

We can drop the idea of the scouts, but I like that it gives us another army card for a little more diverse play. If they are not scouts then they are Uruks just like all the others and we have just one card for all of them. Or would you prefer distinguishing them but with a different name? In the film, for whatever that's worth, the ones at Helm's Deep seemed to be more consistently heavily armored.

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

I would argue that it WAS their defining characteristic and that they WERE scouts. They are specifically referenced as scouts and Ugluk is referenced as the Uruk that led the Uruk scouts. This is in plain language, as well as the information that Saruman and Sauron both had many types of units in his force to include infantry and scouts, there is a large difference between the two types of units. Scouts are generally considered to be mobile and less heavily armed than infantry, capable of something like quick engagement or recon or "grabbing" something. These guys were not the Uruk-hai that stormed helm's deep or else we might have seen more than just Boromir die in an outnumbered encounter in the woods.

Do you have quotes from the books on this?

Originally Posted by Shiftrex

If the theme of carrying your own figures around the board doesn't work for you, honestly it could be renamed "escort" to show that the band is just moving you quicker, then we could easily go back to an earlier wording I suggested that made it so you could only grab an enemy figure that fit the bill. Much less useful on the battlefield or in a game but it fits the theme.

Actually, figure movement powers are pretty powerful in Heroscape.

[Shiftrex]

It is still much less if the utility to move your own figures is taken away, and the size restriction of small is placed upon any movement ability. I'm not saying that it has zero application but it does have a much more limited scope that may speak better to theme and be less overall useful in battle by merit of having restrictions. I am not against that design direction.

Quotes from the book? Two Towers, Book 3, Chapter 3.

[quote]
'The scouts have come back at last,' said an Orc close at hand.

'Well, what did you discover?' growled the voice of Ugluk.

'Only a single horseman, and he made off westwards. All's clear now.'
[\quote]

'Now we'll deal with Grishnakh,' said Ugluk; but some even of his own followers were looking uneasily southwards.

'I know,' growled Ugluk. 'The cursed horse-boys have got wind of us. But that's all your fault, Snaga. You and the other scouts ought to have your ears cut off. But we are the fighters. We'll feast on horseflesh yet, or something better.'

At that moment Pippin saw why some of the troop had been pointing eastward. From that direction there now came hoarse cries, and there was Grishnakh again, and at his back a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs. They had a red eye painted on their shields. Ugluk stepped forward to meet them. 'So you've come back?' he said. 'Thought better of it, eh?'

The word Orc and Uruk-hai is often used interchangeably during Tolkien's writing as far as I can tell. These quotes imply that yes, part of the group were scouts. Scouts are a part of a fighting force that capitalizes on the organization and these guys fit the bill with their mission scope. Also, googling Uruk-hai scout shows that I'm not the only one that thinks the idea exists or is viable when referencing these guys (i.e. the wiki and games workshop figures).

You have different armor and weapon set for sieging as opposed to a fast capture mission, there is a thematic separation of what they should be in my mind. I think it's silly to debate them being scouts when they fit the bill so closely but if that's where it goes then that's where it goes. However, I may be stuck on a silly opinion, I can admit that and move on to call them something else if that works better for everyone.

Someone else can definitely take point on that.

[caps]

Let's see if I can pull the thoughts together.

NAME = Uruk-hai Hunters

GENERAL = UTGAR
UNIQUENESS = Common Squad (4 figures)
CLASS = Hunters
PERSONALITY = Relentless
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM/5

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 5
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4
POINTS = 80

URUKS OF THE WHITE HAND
When an Uruk-hai Hunter rolls an attack against a human figure add 1 additional attack die.

TRACKING
While moving, the Uruk-hai Hunters may add 2 to their Move number. If they do, the Uruk-hai Hunters cannot attack this turn.

DRAG
Once per turn, before moving an Uruk-hai Hunter, choose a small or medium non-Orc figure adjacent to that Uruk-hai Hunter. Uruk-hai Hunters do not take leaving engagement attacks from the chosen figure this turn. After moving the Uruk-hai Hunter, place the chosen figure adjacent to it on an unoccupied same-level land space, if possible. A figure moved by Uruk-hai Hunters never takes any leaving engagement attacks.

--


It seems we are considering a power like this for the common squad we'll meet in The Two Towers at Helm's Deep:

BRED FOR WAR
At the start of the game, place 1 War Bred marker on an Uruk-Hai Soldier Army Card for each Uruk-Hai Soldier Army Card in your army. After an Uruk-Hai Soldier rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may remove 1 War Bred marker from its Army Card to ignore all wounds inflicted by that attack.

Maybe we could find a good way to port that back to the Hunters in place of the carry power if it is too controversial.

[White Knight]

I really don't like Drag on the Urak-hai hunters. I can never see it being used as intended outside of a scenario.

[caps]

That's at least two people who don't like it...

I would love to hear an alternative power idea

[Splash]

If we do want to keep them more Hasbro level, I think they'd be fine with just Uruks and Tracking.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Splash

If we do want to keep them more Hasbro level, I think they'd be fine with just Uruks and Tracking.

I disagree. I don't think tracking is enough of a reason to ever include them in your army instead of another squad of regular common Uruks.

I suppose there's some value to them in an army without any common Uruks, but given how much Uruks are going to boost each other the only "viable" use i see for them then is as a screen for ranged Uruks, and I don't think they fill that role particularly well.

I like carry / drag myself, but if the concensus is to not use it then I think we either need another useful niche power or to abandon this card.

[caps]

Well, "they're for when your army isn't common Uruks" may be a fine answer.


EDIT: I think Brute Gruts see more play outside of blade/heavy builds than *in* them. Tarns have some soft synergy with the Viking Warriors but outside of that there's not much reason to include them with, say, Knights.


All that to say I'm pretty okay with them not necessarily being used with the other Uruks.


If they have a different point value (and 4 figure count vs 3, perhaps) they could still justify themselves alongside other Uruks thanks to synergy with the heroes