The Book of The Top

[IAmBatman]

Is there anything wrong with a power going to a minimum of zero?

I do like that specification of a minimum to avoid any confusion about potential negative numbers.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Is there anything wrong with a power going to a minimum of zero?

I do like that specification of a minimum to avoid any confusion about potential negative numbers.

I am more concerned with the negative numbers but I do have a mild concern about zero as well. especially on low cost cards. It may not be an issue and it could be that I'm jaded by figures with zero defense. The Viper's in classic and some figures I tested from HOSS. There's just something about that hope even with just a single die roll and the disappointment of not even getting a chance to roll. I'd say my issue is more of a play experience I guess.

[Ronin]

I prefer not having a minimum in general, and definitely not here, given the overlap that Scapemage pointed out. 1 defense die is only marginally less hopeless than 0, and the 'to a minimum of 1' thing always feels clunky to me.

Negative defense doesn't strike me as a concern. It seems pretty intuitive that you'd just roll 0, unless you have some dice with negative shields on em or something.

[IAmBatman]

Fair enough. I don’t believe Wolverine has a minimum qualifier and that card is beloved.

[Scapemage]

Let's just have a quick poll. Would you prefer Making The World Spin to have a cap of 1 defense die (the opponent rolls always at least 1 die) or no minimum (the opponent could roll 0 defense dice)?


I'd prefer no limit.

[Ronin]

No limit.

[japes]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Negative defense doesn't strike me as a concern. It seems pretty intuitive that you'd just roll 0, unless you have some dice with negative shields on em or something.

Not everyone reads it as such. I've actually had people ask if -1 defense means the attacker gets one die? Their thinking was that since you can't roll negative dice everything gets normalized. I know that's a rare occurrence but I've also never thought it felt clunky to me.

I don't feel a 65 point figure combined with Top should have the ability to completely take away a figure's ability to defend an attack of Sticky Gum. I'm fairly certain no one thought of stacking defensive subtraction when Trickster was designed. He was designed and priced so that a 4 defense Flash at most was facing a 2 Skull + 2 Blank attack which would still give him 2 dice. Now we are stacking it with another figure that would take away the other two dice. I'm not concerned about Captain Cold since his is a Special Attack.

Trickster is a normal attack. Pair him with Cappy and Top and he could roll 3 skulls and 2 blanks which when combined means Flash gets 3 of his 4 wounds without even rolling defense.

CAP

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Fair enough. I don’t believe Wolverine has a minimum qualifier and that card is beloved.

He has a flat -2 and if he was teamed with a figure that could negate other's defense when he attacks it would probably be more of a concern. Plus he's costed at more points than these two combined.

Top negates defense during another figures attack at the same time that figures attack negates defense.

@dok @Soundwarp SG-1 @Dysole @weebaer do you have an opinion?

[dok]

This power is basically just a copy of Vertigo's power (except only working for Rogues, and working for SAs), right? So this has been out there for a while.

I don't find it confusing, personally. Worth a R&C, perhaps, but I wouldn't bother putting "a minimum of zero" on the card.

[japes]

Originally Posted by dok

This power is basically just a copy of Vertigo's power (except only working for Rogues, and working for SAs), right? So this has been out there for a while.

I don't find it confusing, personally. Worth a R&C, perhaps, but I wouldn't bother putting "a minimum of zero" on the card.

So you don't see an issue with the stacking of the defense boost powers? That's more the concern I have.

[dok]

You mean like, say, Trickster (James) attacks somebody while Vertigo and the Top stack their powers with his, and he rolls 2 blanks to subtract 6 defense dice? Personally, I'm still not that worried, no. It's not that different from Wolverine+Vertigo, or Psycho-Man Fear plus Sinestro Force of Fear, or Lieutenant Stone Preserving the Law plus SWAT stun grenade, any number of other possible combos that already exist.

Truth be told, defensive subtraction is just not the strongest mechanic. Defense dice are inconsistent anyway; adding more attack dice is more powerful unless your opponent has special defensive abilities. Of course, having The Top (or trickster, or Vertigo) be able to thwart defensive stuff like acrobatics of speed dodge is pretty thematic. They'll be relatively strong in those matchups, and that's fine because you have to invest in that combo to make it work. That investment won't feel like money well spent when Frankenstein and The Hulk are pounding your face.

The actual confusing thing is when you have different powers that have different minimums. There's several powers that call out a minimum of 1, and it's not clear how they interact with other defense reductions. For example:

• If a 3 defense figure with Mister Freeze's Ice Marker on it is attacked by Punisher's Armor Piercing Rocket and he rolls 2 skulls? Does that figure have 0 defense, or 1 defense?
• If Mole Man attacks a 5 defense figure with 3 moloids adjacent, and is boosted by Vertigo and rolls 2 blanks, does that figure have 1 defense, or 0 defense?
• If Shadowcat(I) attacks a 3 defense common android adjacent to Wonder Man, does it roll 1 defense or 0 defense?

I don't think the answers here are clear at all, but the problem is caused by the existence of a minimum, not solved by it.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by japes

I don't feel a 65 point figure combined with Top should have the ability to completely take away a figure's ability to defend an attack of Sticky Gum. I'm fairly certain no one thought of stacking defensive subtraction when Trickster was designed. He was designed and priced so that a 4 defense Flash at most was facing a 2 Skull + 2 Blank attack which would still give him 2 dice. Now we are stacking it with another figure that would take away the other two dice. I'm not concerned about Captain Cold since his is a Special Attack.

Trickster is a normal attack. Pair him with Cappy and Top and he could roll 3 skulls and 2 blanks which when combined means Flash gets 3 of his 4 wounds without even rolling defense.

CAP

"Combined with Top" is pretty key there. You're not talking about a 65 point figure being able to totally knock Flash's defense to 0, you're talking about a 250 point combination of figures. I don't mind them having a shot at cutting through Flash's defense if Trickster's attack dice fall just so.

Plus, Trickster only has 3 attack - if he rolls 2 blanks, he's only coming up with 1 skull, tops, unless he can get bonuses from height or tactician figures - and he's way too fragile to really consider investing in Cap or whatever just to beef him up. You don't want to put too many eggs in that basket.

There are other ways to more reliably cut through defense in that point arena. Figures like Katana and X-23 can reliably knock a couple defense dice off by themselves. Or, if you're talking strictly about stacking, you can team Green Arrow and Vertigo for just 240 points. Easier to set up than Top + Trickster, and easier to boost.