New 52 And DC Rebirth Workshop

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by ALEXAN2507

Spoilered for bad language

Spoiler Alert!

Okay, here's my counter-arguments and thoughts.

Spoilers because I apparently wrote a whole essay about this.

Spoiler Alert!

I never once took it as the Joker having never committed crimes or killing people. Rather, I saw it more as an examination of how the criminal system works in the Batman universe. How many times have you ever seen the Joker serving actual trial for the crimes he's committed? The way I see it, he probably isn't ever put on trial. He does something horrible, the cops throw him back in Arkham, and everyone goes along because he's the Joker, of course he committed the crime. But without the proper legal procedure being followed, there was a lack of proper legal evidence of all of the Joker's crimes. Jack was able to get out not because he didn't commit those crimes or kill anybody, but because the whole Gotham City legal system was so complicit in this off-the-books vigilante system of justice that they overlooked the actual proper legal channels. There are still holes in that story (why didn't more people who's friends or family had been killed come forward?) but ultimately I'm willing to overlook some of that. It's an examination of a comic book universe, it plays be the slightly nonsensical rules of the universe.

In the same vein, I think it's a massive overstatement to say Jack gets out of prison and suddenly he's the champion of the people. He sows just enough doubt with his whole "did the Joker really do those things" conspiracy, then manipulates events so that people see him as the better alternative to the Batman way of doing things. Even his most ardent supporters (Duke) don't really trust him. But he's created/unmasked a problem in Gotham City then sold himself as the solution. I guess I'd be far less willing to believe it if that wasn't a thing that happens in real life politics all the time. It's also worth noting the story takes place over the course of about a year, if I remember correctly. He spent a whole year promoting himself and saying everything the people wanted/needed to hear to get where he got.

I took this Batman as one that is slightly different from our main-line one, who I don't think would take things as far as WK Batman did. I think the death of Alfred had a BIG part in that, as he was clearly deeply affected and on the edge because of it. I'm also just willing to accept that an Elseworlds Batman might just have a slightly different personality. I can see how it might bother some that he was played as clueless/angry as he was at times, but it all seemed reasonable to me. I kind of like my Batman with flaws, versus all-knowing contingency-for-everything Batman.

I agree about Neo-Joker. I didn't really care for all of that with the Wayne family's secret dark past, and the freeze ray, and having the big fan-service showdown at the end. It just felt like a convenient way to reset everything to a typical good against bad status quo, when the whole point of the story was to tear that down. It's an Elseworlds, why can't we end it with something actually different? Does DC really need a sequel that badly?

I think the character of Neo-Joker had some spark as a further examination of Harley as a character. She's the catchphrase-spewing lunchbox version of Harley that's stripped of any of the original depth the character had. I think there's even a meta examination of how some fans romanticize the obviously toxic Joker/Harley relationship. But ultimately I feel that was lost in exchange for turning her into a big dumb action villain with no real depth.

I don't think Two-Face has the gravitas as a character, either in universe or out of universe, for the story to work as well with him.

With all the stuff about the comic not matching up with the mainline DC continuity, frankly I just don't care. It doesn't bother me one bit if the Robins are in the wrong order or if Duke isn't like he is in those other comics. I'm of the same mind on the movies too; if they think a change to continuity is better for their story, they should go for it. (IM3 Mandarin)

Ultimately, if nothing else, the story is worth it to me just for the examination of the Joker/Harley relationship. That's the part that I'll always remember most, a really tragic tale of what could've been.

I'll pick up the sequel cause I've always thought Azrael is a compelling character, but I'm not 100% sold there really needs to be a sequel. It does feel like a bit of a cash grab.

[ALEXAN2507]

The main thing with Duke was it was just like, it wasn't, yknow
Duke

It felt like "hey we have a black character let's just say it's Duke Thomas"

Like you could've said it was Luke Fox and it would have made about as much sense

[MrNobody]

Originally Posted by ALEXAN2507

The main thing with Duke was it was just like, it wasn't, yknow
Duke

It felt like "hey we have a black character let's just say it's Duke Thomas"

Like you could've said it was Luke Fox and it would have made about as much sense

I guess I just saw it more as a fun easter egg, like when they have a random character in the MCU have the name of a more obscure super-hero or something like that.

I see where you’re coming from on all of this and I think it’s pretty reasonable honestly

[ALEXAN2507]

NAME = ARTEMIS

SPECIES = AMAZON
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = INTERLOPER
PERSONALITY = FIERCE

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5
LIFE = ?

MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 6

POINTS = ???

TO ME, MISTRESS!
Start the game with one Mistress Marker. Once per round, before taking a turn with Artemis, you may either place the Mistress Marker on this card or remove the Mistress Marker from this card. While this card has a Mistress Marker on it, add 2 dice to Artemis' attack and subtract 2 dice from Artemis' defense and subtract 2 from Artemis' movement.

AXE THROW SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 7 Attack 5
Once per round, you may remove the Mistress Marker from this card to use Axe Throw special attack. Artemis may target any figure with this attack, even if she is engaged.

WARRIOR OF BANA-MIGHDALL

If this card does not have a Mistress Marker on it, whenever Artemis rolls a skull against a figure leaving engagement with her, that figure may not leave the engagement with Artemis this turn. If this card has a Mistress Marker on it, Artemis rolls two unblockable attack dice against figures leaving engagement with her.

SUPER STRENGTH

[ALEXAN2507]

(Just reposting bcs I can't find it)

[Spidey'tilIDie]

You have "Wonder Woman" in the last power where it should say Artemis.

[Lazy Orang]

Probably because I don't know the character, but what's the theme of the Mistress Marker? I thought to start with she's be picking out a Mistress at the start of the game and synergising with her. Is... Mistress her axe?

[Ronin]

Mistress is the name of her axe, yes.

[ALEXAN2507]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

You have "Wonder Woman" in the last power where it should say Artemis.

Oops, thanks

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Mistress is the name of her axe, yes.

I'd suggest making that clear in the text so that people like me who don't know her character can still understand her, but simply making the image of the Mistress Marker an axe should probably solve those difficulties.

Looking pretty good.

[Tornado]

Just make sure it is mentioned in the bio.
Great axe.

[Lazy Orang]

Just a clarification of intent - when figures leave an engagement with her and she has her axe, did you intend:

1) For the unblockable attack dice mentioned in Warrior of Bana-Mighdall to be two unblockables in addition to and separate from normal LEA attacks, or,
2) For it to simply increase the number of dice rolled for leaving engagement attacks by one (which is quite a bit weaker and in which case I suggest looking to the Knights of Weston/Catman for wording).

Also, is it meant to work against figures who avoid LEAs? The intent doesn't feel entirely clear to me here.