A Moderated D&D Heroscape Debate

[Hogg]

Originally Posted by Sarpedon

C) If D&D is NOT for little kids, but Heroscape IS for little kids, then how the heck can they be combined? Will (mostly adult) D&D players want to play a D&D game that will (apparently) necessarily have to be super dumbed-down to jive with a little kids game?

Every new edition is a little more dumbed down. They dropped the "advanced" when 3rd edition came out and 4th edition seems closer to the basic DnD I played when I was 10.

[1Mmirg]

FWIW, my kids both started playing when they were 5. The advanced game. By the time she was 6 my daughter knew the special powers better than I did. (Is it 11 for the Vanish? I'd check the card--she knew it by heart.) At 8 she (and two other local kids) were playing in our tournaments. She hasn't won it all yet, but she (10) does plenty well, usually winning more than she loses. (The other younger players do quite well, also.)

This is exactly the game that CVN wanted, IMO. Thanks, GB, for adding that. There is no game I'd rather play with my kids. Sure, my son (5) has a ways to go to be able to play me 1 on 1 (usually we do teams--he and I against my wife and daughter), but I'm betting he'll be there in a year or two.

That said, this is also a game that I absolutely love to play with other adults--it has an incredible range of play. But, then, if you're reading this, you likely already knew that!

In terms of D&D: My older brother started in 3rd grade (about 8 years old?) and I was dragged into it then (I'd be about 5 then). Admittedly, it was a few years before I really "got" it--but I'd say that I was safely playing and DMing by the time I was about 8 or so as well. (My younger brother followed a similar trajectory.)

So, at least in my family, both games had younger players joining in at about 5, gaining relative competence by 8, and enjoying it for years to come. (We each aged out of D&D by about 18, but Heroscape has continued to satisfy and I'm well into my 30s--and, of course, many other players are much more advanced than I am (here's looking at you, Rev!). I hope to catch them some day--and still be playing .)

[Sarpedon]

I think that most of us agree then. It is a game designed for BOTH adults and kids. It can be played better or worse (as chess). It's good that MOST of us can see that.

[Hahma]

Yes, it's designed for both kids and adults. Most ages can enjoy the game and it can be played by adults vs. kids, kids vs. kids and adults vs. adults. It can be played for fun at any age level without rules lawyering or competitively. The game can be made as complex as people want to to get a more advanced feel to it by making custom rules, scenerios and custom terrrain/figures.

I don't know what the argument is. The game was created for anyone at any level of gaming that is into this kind of gaming.

[Sarpedon]

Originally Posted by Hahma

Yes, it's designed for both kids and adults. Most ages can enjoy the game and it can be played by adults vs. kids, kids vs. kids and adults vs. adults. It can be played for fun at any age level without rules lawyering or competitively. The game can be made as complex as people want to to get a more advanced feel to it by making custom rules, scenerios and custom terrrain/figures.

I don't know what the argument is. The game was created for anyone at any level of gaming that is into this kind of gaming.

Really, huh?

Would you play it in the rain?
Would you lose and then complain?

Would you play it when at work?
Even if your boss' a jerk?

Would you play it in the sun?
Not competitively, just for fun?

Would you play it with a dragon?
Or with a gypsy in a wagon?

Would you play it with a drunk?
When, if you lost, you'd know you'd stunk?

Would you play it in the Middle East?
Or over a decadent unicorn feast?

Can you say that it would be,
Fine to play it in a tree?

Aha! You see, it's really not for everybodee!

[IAmBatman]

Sleep deprivation, maybe? Prescription drug overdose? H1N1? There's gotta be a way to explain what just happened here ...

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Sleep deprivation, maybe? Prescription drug overdose? H1N1? There's gotta be a way to explain what just happened here ...

psst....Maybe it was the magic mushrooms...

Yeah, I'm pretty confused too.

[gevdarg]

I just like to say as a late comer to heroscape that my family and I really enjoy this game. I definitely attest to the fact that I do not want to see classic scape go to the wayside. I mean if WOTC wants to go all DnD all the time, there are only two ways to stop them:

1. Don't buy the product and hope (huge emphasis on the word "hope") they see the error of their ways.

2. Use this forum and others to express the winter of our discontent and (once again) hope they see the error of the ways.

I mean if WOTC is intent on making heroscape all DnD all the time, we are not going to stop them. We may to take the advice John Lennon gave when the Beatles and just enjoy the old records, or in this case, the classic scape figures we already have.

A very good and thoughtful debate, guys.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by gevdarg

I just like to say as a late comer to heroscape that my family and I really enjoy this game. I definitely attest to the fact that I do not want to see classic scape go to the wayside. I mean if WOTC wants to go all DnD all the time, there are only two ways to stop them:

1. Don't buy the product and hope (huge emphasis on the word "hope") they see the error of their ways.

2. Use this forum and others to express the winter of our discontent and (once again) hope they see the error of the ways.

I mean if WOTC is intent on making heroscape all DnD all the time, we are not going to stop them. We may to take the advice John Lennon gave when the Beatles and just enjoy the old records, or in this case, the classic scape figures we already have.

A very good and thoughtful debate, guys.

This is a very good point, and good attitude. Honestly, the best place to complain about DnD Heroscape would be here or in some form of letter writing campaign to WOTC. Here on our forums, your posts will be read by folks who work along with WOTC in developing the new Heroscape releases. You can be sure that even if WOTC decides differently, we have hammered home the point that you all love and expect classic, even if DnDscape is a hit (which I think it will be).

[eMCee]

As a marketer, I can offer the following business analysis:

Companies prefer Stars even more than Cash Cows - product lines with wide appeal that sell like crazy regardless of what you do to them.

Hasbro attempted to create a new Star franchise with Heroscape. It failed with a wide demographic, but became a niche success with an older demo of the tabletop gaming crowd. Hasbro isn't in that business, but WoTC is. So, they gave it to them.

WoTC likes Stars or even Cash Cows, too. They don't want to waste time and resources on anything that isn't creating gobs of money. Heroscape isn't a Star ... it's a Dog (perhaps a Question Mark).

Enter the Boston Consulting Group's Growth Share matrix. Shorthand descriptions are:

Cash Cow - high market share / low market growth funds new games
Stars - high market share / high market growth makes people rich
Dog - low market share / low growth is a strain on the company
Question Mark - low market share / high growth has potential

So, WoTC is faced with what they should do with a highly popular niche game with a small market share and little potential for growth. Sure, we'll buy up every pack of the limited inventory they produce, but that's not growth. No new people are entering the franchise. The concept did not take off.

Dogs are usually breakeven business lines and history tells us they should be sold off. Hasbro did that already. WoTC has one shot to move Heroscape into a high growth phase ... to make it more accessible to new players ... after that, it's gone.

You can't boycott the DnD version and win.
You can't embrace the DnD version and win.
It's not about us ... the only way we win is if we get NEW people involved.

[Shinobi Master]

As I said in my opening comments, there has to be a reason that WoTC is making a change, and the only logical assumption we can make as to what that reason is has to be that Heroscape was not profitable enough in its current state. This means that if something didn't change, the franchise would soon end. There's simply no other way about it.

What I don't get about WoTC putting DnD in Heroscape is that why they couldn't have just released DnD figures with some new Classic Heroscape figures so that people can still buy Classic Heroscape figures and that if these Dnd figures aren't very popular WoTC can just change it back to Classic Heroscape. But that's my opinion.

[Anitar]