WotC and D&D... are leeches always bad?

[Kaiyu]

This is not a rant against WotC

To some of us here it quite clear that WotC is using Heroscape for their personal gain. The new base change size, the 3 new sculpts, which some speculate are on the DW9000 sized base... it all adds up to that WotC isn't so much concerned with what happens to Heroscape as long as their miniatures can sell. The old HS base was too big for most miniature game, and the double-spaced provided problems too...

... but is it all bad? There's a second side to this coin. Even if we aren't first in WotC's hearts, they are giving stuff (well... technically the design team is). And if you know anything about some odd medicine practices, leeches are used for blood-letting and apparently has positive effects.


But here's one you probably hadn't thought of:

I have a friend who played HS for the first time last weekend, he's played D&D his whole life. And he LOVES the hex grid system. In fact, he planned on going out and buying a set of Heroscape just for the landscape. If you know anything about D&D, having to draw the battlefield out every single time becomes tedious and usually doesn't look too pretty, but my friend was in love with the idea of making a pretty cave and re-designing the effect cones for abilities to the hex grid system. The hex grid system is just so much more smarter and easier he said.

And he wasn't the first person I've know to do this. I've know a couple of D&D fans that bought the master set back in the day just for the pieces. I visited a friend who had owned the HS master set for half a year and had never played, he only used the pieces to make little maps for his D&D games.

So what's my point?

If you follow D&D, they recently released D&D 4th Edition.... and fans hate it. Most of my D&D playing friends didn't like the switch to 3rd Edition, and 4th Edition, they said, is even worse. So WotC is digging themselves a hole, if they want to release something that the fans will like, they'll have to do something really good... like a new hex-grid system!

Everyone only thinks about how Heroscape is just recycling old D&D stuff... but WotC owns Heroscape now... and what if they start recycling old Heroscape stuff??? If WotC starts producing the hex grid pieces for their D&D games, using the Heroscape design, it means more terrain for us. They will most likely be sold without the figures, thus reducing the cost. Part of owning Heroscape doesn't just mean working their old ideas to work for HS for profit, it also means they can good idea from HS and work it into other products they care about!

Okay, sure, so WotC doesn't have us in mind with any changes they make, they have their prodigy child D&D in mind. But even if we're getting hand-me-downs, if those hand-me-downs are for the benefit of Heroscape, its still better than nothing.

[mac122]

Well said.

[SgtHulka]

You make some really interesting points. I just wanted to comment on the following.

Originally Posted by kaiyu0707

If you follow D&D, they recently released D&D 4th Edition.... and fans hate it. Most of my D&D playing friends didn't like the switch to 3rd Edition, and 4th Edition, they said, is even worse. So WotC is digging themselves a hole, if they want to release something that the fans will like, they'll have to do something really good... like a new hex-grid system!

Do you have anything more than anectdotal evidence to suggest that 4e is a failure? To be clear, I sense the same thing you do, but just because I sense it doesn't make it true. From what I understand, WoTC has been pretty private about actual sales figures, and their public statements have all declared 4e a massive success.

Secondly, it seems (and I emphasize seems) that one of their hottest sellers are their dungeon tiles, which are square-based. I don't think it would be a wise business strategy for them to compete with themselves.

That all said, I *hope* you're right. I agree with all your other observations whole heartedly.

By the way, 3.5 edition D&D had a pretty handy conversion from squares to hexes that you can find here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...ng/hexGrid.htm

[Kaiyu]

Originally Posted by SgtHulka

You make some really interesting points. I just wanted to comment on the following.

Do you have anything more than anectdotal evidence to suggest that 4e is a failure? To be clear, I sense the same thing you do, but just because I sense it doesn't make it true. From what I understand, WoTC has been pretty private about actual sales figures, and their public statements have all declared 4e a massive success.

Secondly, it seems (and I emphasize seems) that one of their hottest sellers are their dungeon tiles, which are square-based. I don't think it would be a wise business strategy for them to compete with themselves.

That all said, I *hope* you're right. I agree with all your other observations whole heartedly.

By the way, 3.5 edition D&D had a pretty handy conversion from squares to hexes that you can find here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/ad...ng/hexGrid.htm

Sorry, the only evidence I have is the word of several "from birth" D&D fans. D&D's fan base isn't exactly something that grows beyond family and friends passing it down (probably due to this being the day and age of video games), so I'm not sure why WotC would willingly change to something that doesn't appeal to the die-hard fans.

I've also never heard of any D&D fans enjoying the square grid system, so if it is true that the square dungeon maps are top-selling, I think it would be more due to the fact that its all that's available. WotC could have went hex-grid; they actually used a hex grid system for flying combat, so its not beyond their grasp.


The one friend I was talking with sincerely believes that WotC bought the rights to Heroscape so they could utilize the hex grid pieces if they ever desired to. He figured they would need an ace in the whole in the event 4th Edition was indeed a flop.

[Chardar]

This reminds of another reason that I'd thought up for the change to smaller bases. Castle Ravenloft. I haven't bought this game yet, but it's definitely on my want list. However I'm a little disappointed that I won't be able to use my older HS minis in the game. However I will be able to use the new smaller bases. By making all of their games compatible with one another they will increase both sales in interest for all them. Which is what I believe are trying to do, and in my mind, succeeding.

[Kaiyu]

Originally Posted by Chardar

I'm a little disappointed that I won't be able to use my older HS minis in the game.

You could probably easily take an exacto knife to your old bases if you don't mind mutilating them.

[Purplebeard]

Originally Posted by kaiyu0707

You could probably easily take an exacto knife to your old bases if you don't mind mutilating them.

GASP! .....mutilating 'Scape figures.......

......stagger.....I need a Scotch, neat, quickly.......

On another note, the whimsical irony of 'Scape "taking over" D&D is fun to contemplate.....but probably won't happen.

[Chilling Touch]

Very well said. I appreciate the thoughts.

[Chardar]

Originally Posted by Purplebeard

GASP! .....mutilating 'Scape figures.......

......stagger.....I need a Scotch, neat, quickly.......

My response. Don't want to threadjack...

[Kaiyu]

Originally Posted by Purplebeard

On another note, the whimsical irony of 'Scape "taking over" D&D is fun to contemplate.....but probably won't happen.

If this comes true it will hardly be a take over. The way I vision it, since they bought the rights WotC will produce hex pieces like in HS, probably most of which will be dungeon or at least fantasy based settings. They can sell the new product with the intention of being an improvement of the old square system. Movement, sight, formation, and ability templates work a lot smoother on hex grid then they do on square grids. However they also know that HS fans will buy the pieces to further their collection and thus make a small profit off something that wasn't really intended for them, which is really the opposite situation we're seeing now with the smaller base sizes and the new news about DW9000 size bases (make something intended for group 1, but make sure it's sell-able to group 2).

From what we've seen from WotC so far, it sure sounds like something they would do and from personal experience, D&D fans do like the HS tiles, even if they don't like the game. You honestly think WotC started discussion with Hasbro about buying from them without knowing that their fans were using its pieces? I don't think you're given them enough credit.

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by kaiyu0707

If this comes true it will hardly be a take over. The way I vision it, since they bought the rights WotC will produce hex pieces like in HS, probably most of which will be dungeon or at least fantasy based settings. They can sell the new product with the intention of being an improvement of the old square system. Movement, sight, formation, and ability templates work a lot smoother on hex grid then they do on square grids. However they also know that HS fans will buy the pieces to further their collection and thus make a small profit off something that wasn't really intended for them, which is really the opposite situation we're seeing now with the smaller base sizes and the new news about DW9000 size bases (make something intended for group 1, but make sure it's sell-able to group 2).

From what we've seen from WotC so far, it sure sounds like something they would do and from personal experience, D&D fans do like the HS tiles, even if they don't like the game. You honestly think WotC started discussion with Hasbro about buying from them without knowing that their fans were using its pieces? I don't think you're given them enough credit.

WotC didn't buy anything. WotC is owned by Hasbro and the product line was moved from one division to another.

[Tornado]

Nice thread kaiyu. I really can not believe any true role-player would be comfortable in any kind of grid or hex based system. If you want to play with miniatures on a board play HS or Warhammer 40k or ect. I always hated bringing minis into my campaigns. Imagination should rule in such games. I do like the idea of new terrain though for HS. I hope your thoughts come true, well done. peace