The Marro Language

[shmet]

Notice: I'm going to be gone for two years doing church service and consequently won't be able to update this thread or keep up with any PM's or forum posts. I hoped to be able to work on this more before I left, but I got too busy and hit a creative road block. I expect to continue working where I left off when I get back. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to someone continuing development, but I also don't really expect that to happen. If someone does want to work on this project, please refer to a "style guide" at the bottom of this post.

Originally Posted by IshMEL

I look forward to battle reports delivered in -- what do you call this? Marro? Marrspeak? Marr? Marronaise?

Marronaise it is!

Apart from Heroscape, one of my hobbies is linguistics. I haven't been doing this for long, but I do know some Spanish (three college semesters) and I am learning Swedish. I studied Esperanto for a while, but I started confusing Esperanto words with Swedish words so I stopped. I also have done a bit of research about a few language related topics.

Anyways, I thought it would be cool to construct a language for the Marro to speak. I realize that a lot of communication between Marro is (would be) telepathic, but Ne-Gok-Sa's bio mentions his native language having chittering sound. This makes me think that the Marro Warlords and Hivelords and such have a spoken language.

I haven't made too much progress, but I wanted to post this on the forums to get input and keep me motivated . I would love to receive suggestions, critiques, comments, et cetera.
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Here is what I have so far:

Sounds (standard English phonology on the left and if a different letter is used it is on the right):
b
d
g
h
k
m
n
p
r
s
t
v
w
z
sh - f
ch - c
glottal stop - '
long e - e
short e - ä
short i - i
long o - ø
short o - o
short a - a
short u - u
ascending whistle - ô
descending whistle - õ
light click - q
heavy click - x

The last four sounds aren't used like the other letters, but are used as "markers" placed before what they mark.
x -> question
q -> subject
ô -> direct object (of verb)
õ -> indirect object (of verb)

• One makes the x sound by putting one's tongue on the back of the roof of the mouth and pulling down such that a loud click is made.
• The q sound is made by doing the same thing but putting the tongue at the front of the roof of the mouth.
• The ô sound is just a whistle that starts low and gets high and lasts just long enough to "get the point across".
• The õ sound is the same type of thing, but starts low and gets high.

Place the question marker at the beginning of a sentence to make it a yes or no question. IE: Instead of saying "Is it raining?" one would say "[heavy click] It is raining" with no change in inflection.

q, ô, and õ allow for flexible word order. This means that instead of the English way of organizing sentences (subject-verb-object) nouns can be placed anywhere and one just needs to mark their role.

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Suffixes
Currently the functions of suffixes are to turn verbs to nouns and add "flavor" or clarification.
For instance, "kulwa" means "gun" and "kulsøca" means enemy.
There are a few choices of vowels for each category. This is because, or instance, there are many things that can be used to attack and a gun is but one. Changing the vowel just means that it is something else that fits with the general description. Note: when conversing in Marronaise one should not spontaneously pick any vowel all the words are predefined, but having a system will hopefully make them easier to understand.

Convert to Noun (a, ä, o, i):
one who does: -g[vowel]
object used to: -w[vowel]
one who receives the action: -c[vowel]

Add Flavor:
small: -tø
large: -rø
weak: -zø
strong: -sø
slow: -vø
fast: -bø
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Words
Note: Marronaise doesn't distinguish words as singular or plural. kulca could mean "enemy" or "enemies" based on the context. Marronaise also does not capitalize any words. The stressed syllable is always the first one.

Pronouns:
1st person - cø
2nd person - cä
3rd person - ca

Verbs:
to move on ground - tor
to move above ground - bok
to gain altitude - bot
to attack - kul
to destroy or kill - kulzø
to defend - gok
to immobilize - burk
to hide - tul
to separate - lok
to think - täb
to be (as in "It is red") - cøg
to exist (as in "There is one ball." or "haber" in Spanish) - cag

Nouns:
gun - kulwa
sword/spear - kulwo
enemy - sulca
fool - täbsøga
cat - botgitø
bird - botgatø
dog - torgitøbø

Prepositions:
around - co
at/on (in relation to space) - po
Ex. ("I sit on the car", "I am at the store")
at/on (in relation to time) - do
Ex. ("We are leaving at 9", "I'll arrive on Monday")
in - no
through - so
of - fo
to - do
with - wo

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Conjugation
There are four ways to conjugate verbs in Marronaise: imperative (command), future, present, past.

Imperative:
The imperative is the same as the infinitive (infinitive is the unconjugated verb form)
Examples:

• To say "let's attack": "qcø kul".
• To say "fly you fools": "bok qtäbsøga"

Future:
Stick -z on the end.
Example:

• To say "We will destroy them": "qcø kulzøz ôca"

Present:
Stick -t on the end.
Note: Unlike many languages English has the present and present progressive ("I run" vs "I am running"). The Marronaise present tense covers both.
Example:

• To say "We are hiding": "tult qcø"
• To say "There are two enemies": "cat ôsulcake"

Past:
Stick -s on the end.
Note: English has a lot of ways to express things in the past (I ran, I have ran, I had ran, I was running, I had been running, I have been running), but Marronaise has just his one way.
Example:

• To say "He immobilized me": "burks qca ôcø"

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Numbers
To indicate a specific number of something append the corresponding number to the end of the word.
To indicate an approximate number of things place a multiple of 8 on the end and then append -t to that.
Examples:
1 - 8 cats: botgitønerot
9 - 64 cats: botgitønerorot
65 - 512 cats: botgitønerororot

Marronaise uses base 8 (octal) because marro generally have 8 fingers.
Digits:
0 - ro
1 - ne
2 - ke
3 - so
4 - me
5 - fe
6 - su
7 - nu
To form numbers bigger than 7 just say the digits starting at the highest place value and going to the lowest. To list multiple numbers next to each other say "lok" (separate) between each number.
Example:
10: neke
7, 8, 9: nu lok nero lok nene
Note: When writing numbers use Arabic numerals like in English, but be sure to use octal.
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Style guide

• Marronaise verbs are always of the form consonant-vowel-consonant or consonant-vowel-"r"-[b,d,g,k,t].
• Marronaise nouns are always derived from verbs.
• Marronaise suffixes are always of the form consonant-vowel.
• Marronaise prepositions are always of the form consonant-"o".
• Marronaise should be easy to pronounce for English speakers (since the vast majority of heroscapers speak English as a first language). This means no letter combinations like "sz", "dt", etc should be used in root words If they occur because of suffixes (excluding conjugation suffixes) it is acceptable.
• Despite Marronaise being easy to pronounce for English speakers, the grammar should not reflect English. However, words that slightly resemble English words are acceptable.

[darius23__14]

As a fellow linguist enthusiast I find this thread unique and fascinating... yet geeky to the max at the same time... if you would put the time into the Marro language, then is it expected to do the same for grut orcs, vipers, trolls, elves, and any other non-human sentient race?

More to the linguistic aspect... I like the direction you're going so far and I especially like the syntactic use of whistles and clicks but I'd like to suggest going another route when it comes to making the words.

I think to make this side project a little simpler it would be easier to model mono-syllabic languages where one sound equals one word/idea. Examples of this would be like Chinese or Vietnamese. This would more accurately match the names of the Marro heroes and lend itself to a "chittering" type language. Additionally you can essentially drop the concept of conjugation altogether because in both Chinese and Vietnamese you use context to dictate when something happened and the verbs almost ALWAYS stay the same. So you go from having to keep track of verb tenses and conjugation (which is far more extensive and intricate) to simply having to create verb vocabulary.

I personally feel this would make more sense for an insect-like alien race with essentially non-existent lips, and the ability to communicate telepathically, especially when working with something like drones who would need the simplest, fastest, most direct form of commands in order to understand orders.

So what might it look like? Let's take some Marro names, say Tor-Kul-Na, Su-Bak-Na, and Me-Burq-Sa.
Let's say
Tor=walk,
Kul= enemy,
Su=fly
Bak=dragon
Me=stare/look
Burq=horse/horse like creature
Na= beast riding hivelord
Sa= Warlord

And make a few battle relevant verbs:
Ka= attack (when completed, kill)
Bol= defend
Cha= human

Plus some numbers:
Te=1
Ti=2
To=3
Ta=4
Tu=5

And perhaps two additional "markers" one representing the completion of a verb= ik
The other representing an unknown quantity= gi

Ne-Gok-Sa and Kee-Mo-Shi are discussing a previous battle and the conversation could flow like this:

K: Tor-Kul-Na ka-ik gi kul-x
Tor-Kul-Na killed how many enemies? (Using your clever question marker)
N: ka-ik tu kul.
Killed 5 enemies (pronoun not necessary because context is. implied).
Te cha-burq-sa kul.
1 man-horse-warlord enemy (Sir Dupuis).
Ti su-cha kul.
2 flying-human enemies (kyrie).
Tor-ka ti cha-t kul
Walk-attack 2 small human enemies. (Trample stomped two dwarves)
Ka te bak kul, bak kul bol-ka, bak kul ka-ik Tor-Kul-Na.
attacked one dragon enemy, dragon enemy defend-attacked (counterstrike), dragon enemy killed TKN

I feel this is a more efficient way of creating a new language but that's just my opinion and this is all just an example to go by not a definitive source or anything.

As benign as your idea might be in comparison to RL I must acknowledge the brilliance, intelligence, and passion in your endeavour, and I salute you and hope my contribution was at least partially beneficial.

[IshMEL]

I look forward to battle reports delivered in -- what do you call this? Marro? Marrspeak? Marr? Marronaise?

[TREX]

Originally Posted by IshMEL

I look forward to battle reports delivered in -- what do you call this? Marro? Marrspeak? Marr? Marronaise?

I would like some Marronaise on my sandwich please, it seems that it should probably be high in protein.

[darius23__14]

Originally Posted by TREX

I would like some Marronaise on my sandwich please, it seems that it should probably be high in protein.

Hahahaha "yes I'd like a Fried Nagrub sandwich, hold the Grok, with extra Marronaise. Can I get a Large Drudgeshake with that?" Lol very clever!!!

[shmet]

Thank you for your input darius. After reading aloud some of your example sentences, I decided I like the way they flow more than my original version.

When I first started brainstorming this I couldn't decide between doing a language for the Marro, the Gruts, or the Soulborgs. Soulborgs would have been a bit of a stretch because they probably just communicate through networks and if they could talk they would speak lojban . I eventually decided on the Marro because LOTR has a language for orcs already (I know HS orcs are way different than LOTR orcs) and I didn't know of many constructed languages for aliens (Klingon being the only one I could remember).

After I work this project to completion I might work on a Grut language. I have some pretty cool ideas about showing deference and authority through forms of words (like "tú" and "usted" in Spanish, but more aggressive and charged).

I am pretty sure the only vipers in the game capable of speech are Mittens and the Azurite Warlord. Given that they come from Marr, they probably just speak Marronaise .

The reason I had 5 letter word roots was so that there would be a greater total of words. I didn't say this in the original post, but there are (or rather "were" after I update the OP) two forms for verbs to take: cvccv or ccvcv (c is consonant, v is vowel). This way the roots are easily identifiable.

However, after actually doing the math I found out that with the current consonants and vowels there are 1,792 possible roots (using cvc). Whereas just one of the five letter forms yields 200,704 roots. I checked on how many roots Esperanto has (even though they aren't used in quite the same way) and found out that Esperanto started with 900 and one source says that 500 is enough for basic communication. So, I'll redo the OP to reflect a new root system.

I wanted nouns to be derived from verbs for two reasons. The first is to make language development systematic. The second is to reflect the Marro as being in constant motion and not dwelling much on objects, but rather on doing things like expanding and laying waste to Marr and Valhalla. Frankly, the first is more important and the second is how I justify it based on the knowledge I have of the Marro race.

TL;DR: I address the question about making languages for other races and I'm going to change the OP based on darius's input.

[Tornado]

Very cool.
I always wanted to create a language for my RPG.

Just for a heads up, Su-Bak-Na is the name of the Marro rider, so I doubt his name would include dragon and fly(perhaps dragon rider), unless he was given his name after his bone dragon was assigned to him, either way two words describing the mount and only one for the rider feels unbalanced.

Na as 'beast riding Hivelord' feels spot on considering they share the word and that trait.
Perhaps Su could be something like 'inspiring'(representing his d20 boost), and Bak is 'dragon rider'.
Burq could be 'horse rider'.
Ever watch The Land of Lost(original TV series, not the movie)?
The Pakuni had an interesting unique language.

[darius23__14]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Just for a heads up, Su-Bak-Na is the name of the Marro rider, so I doubt his name would include dragon and fly(perhaps dragon rider), unless he was given his name after his bone dragon was assigned to him, either way two words describing the mount and only one for the rider feels unbalanced.

Oh dear not this discussion again lol I've seen this else where...
but I see your point and I did say that my example was not definitive rather an example and to take one sound from an existing name and use it to talk about Charos and Dupuis it was easier to assign the meanings I did.

Shmet thank you for responding to each question I posed, that was very considerate of you. And I look forward to seeing your revisions... it's a little hard for me to track what you were going for originally but then again we're using a forum to discuss linguistics as opposed to being able to sit down and talk about ideas and such. I think verb to noun progression is a brilliant idea and your reasoning seems fit to the Marro lifestyle.

[darius23__14]

Originally Posted by shmet

[/U]Marronaise uses base 8 (octal) because marro generally have 8 fingers.
Digits:
0 - ro
1 - ne
2 - ke
3 - so
4 - me
5 - fe
6 - su
7 - nu
To form numbers bigger than 7 just say the digits starting at the highest place value and going to the lowest. To list multiple numbers next to each other say "lok" (separate) between each number.
Example:
10: neke
7, 8, 9: nu lok nero lok nene
Note: When writing numbers use Arabic numerals like in English, but be sure to use octal.

So I'm not entirely sure what's going on with 8 and 1? In this system it seems that 8 and 1 are the same word? You say 10 is neke but your list shows that that would be something like 12 or 3. Perhaps you could clarify what 8 is because right now I'm not sure how a Marro would express his last finger unless he considers his first as 0?

Other than that so far it looks really good and very intelligent! I like the root word system you have starting and the simple tense signifiers... this thread makes me smile every time for the ingenuity and utter uselessness at the same time :P

[shmet]

Originally Posted by darius23__14

So I'm not entirely sure what's going on with 8 and 1? In this system it seems that 8 and 1 are the same word? You say 10 is neke but your list shows that that would be something like 12 or 3. Perhaps you could clarify what 8 is because right now I'm not sure how a Marro would express his last finger unless he considers his first as 0?

When I started out, I wasn't sure if I should make Marronaise use a different numeral system than decimal because it can be a tricky concept to wrap one's mind around. But, it ended up working out really well using parts of Marro names as numerals, so I went for it. I'll try to explain how it works here.

A common explanation for why base 10 is so wide spread among humans is that we humans have ten fingers, most Marro seem to have eight so it makes sense in a way that they would use octal. In decimal (base 10) we have the place values 1, 10, 100, 1000...(times 10 each time), in octal the place values are 1, 8, 64, 512...(times 8 each time). Thus, 13b10 = 15b8.

"neke" translates to 12b8. Next we take 1*8 + 2*1 = 8+2 = 10b10. "nero" means 10b8. Take 1*8 + 0*1 = 8+0 = 8b10.

Originally Posted by darius23__14

... this thread makes me smile every time for the ingenuity and utter uselessness at the same time :P

That's the way conlangs tend to go LOL. Maybe it'll catch on and become the Latin of Heroscape ;P.

[darius23__14]

Wow I understood the places would be different but I wasn't understanding how the number 8 is actually expressed... so for people without the kind of background knowledge that you have, it might be beneficial to state in the list that 8 is nero, literally translated as 10 in that in the 8th place count begins again at 1 and the 1s place begins again at 0. Unless I am the only one who could not figure that out just by looking at it. Its really simple now that I get it but it took me a long time to get it! So then 16 would be expressed as kero or literally 20, and 64 as neroro or 100?

Additionally if ne means one, and gok means defend, then Ne-Gok-Sa would mean One Defend/defense Warlord? Or First Defending/Defense Warlord having come from RotV? Or is it like he has the number one defense of all warlords? And Me-Burq-Sa is Four I'm mobilizing Warlord? With Su-Bak-Na being Six above ground move beast riding hivelord? Just transliterating :P

[shmet]

Originally Posted by darius23__14

Wow I understood the places would be different but I wasn't understanding how the number 8 is actually expressed... so for people without the kind of background knowledge that you have, it might be beneficial to state in the list that 8 is nero, literally translated as 10 in that in the 8th place count begins again at 1 and the 1s place begins again at 0. Unless I am the only one who could not figure that out just by looking at it. Its really simple now that I get it but it took me a long time to get it! So then 16 would be expressed as kero or literally 20, and 64 as neroro or 100?

Yeah, I didn't put in a description because I didn't want to clutter up the OP. But, you seem to have a good understanding of octal now at any rate.

Originally Posted by darius23__14

Additionally if ne means one, and gok means defend, then Ne-Gok-Sa would mean One Defend/defense Warlord? Or First Defending/Defense Warlord having come from RotV? Or is it like he has the number one defense of all warlords? And Me-Burq-Sa is Four I'm mobilizing Warlord? With Su-Bak-Na being Six above ground move beast riding hivelord? Just transliterating :P

When I was assigning numbers to words I looked at the stats of marro figures and was able to come up with pretty good assignments except for ro (0) and fe (5). They were just left overs and I stuck them in were there was room. I can't remember the exact reason I made ne = 1, but your guesses seem pretty good, so we'll go with that. "so" is because he has 3 attack. "su" = 6 (move) and Na->"nu" = 7 (attack). I changed the spelling because it reflects the way I've always heard "Su-Bak-Na" pronounced.