|
Custom Units & Army Cards Fan-created HS army cards for units, glyphs, and equipment |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread | Display Modes |
#5101
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
|
#5102
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Please no more commander figures.
I like the idea of Jan, but not the implementation. I'm not a fan of marker powers unless they really add something and I think this just adds clunkiness. Kafnirra is interesting, but range 2 and range 3 are special range values reserved for very distinct thematic purposes. I'd go with range 4. You'd probably need to go down to 3 attack since she bonds with KoW also. Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#5103
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
Ah OK, have there just been too many commander figures added recently, or people aren't a fan of them, or something like that? Agents just felt a bit under-represented and actually made *more* sense to me thematically to get a commander figure than a lot of the actual ones; the trope of the "mission director" and all that as opposed to stuff like Monks or Ninjas who seem to have just gotten one to make them less bad. I do agree than Jan has some clunky stuff going on, which is a shame. Perhaps there is an easier way to capture the "cavalry hero charging into battle" element; something akin to the Templar's Galloping Charge (or a variation on that) is the obvious/easy one, although I enjoy the idea of capturing the speed of the charge also protecting him against ranged - I figured that just "if he ends his turn after moving 5 or more spaces, he gets +2 defense until next round" without any tracking mechanism was just asking for trouble though. The markers do work in capturing the right "feel" to me but also add a lot of text, and a bit of fiddliness - unfortunate side-effect of trying to work within the confines of the presented ruleset. I didn't find it too bad to play with personally but if the bar for this sort of stuff is high it might not manage to meet it - I'd love suggestions but I can try to tinker with it and see if I can come up with other ways to get similar mechanics going without needing a marker in play. Yeah I think you're right on Kafnirra overall; I do like 3 range more overall for balance reasons, I think, but I had also been independently considering that even for a sort of short-range/shortbowesque "up-close fire" Nordic unit it's a bit "suspension of disbelief"-y at 3. 4 range 3 attack works well too, and also means she has to choose between taking height for a 4-dice range shot or getting to Strike and Shoot for a 3 and a 2 which leads to some other interesting choices in terms of positioning (and yeah like you mentioned reduces the ranged damage output factor with Knights). |
#5104
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
A potential solution for Jan, maybe; Siege/Evar Scarcarver wording? Removes the need for a seperate marker in play by using the "X" as the tag, like those two heroes do. I also considered doing something like Estivara's Cloud of Darkness power, which technically is a defensive power that persists after her turn, but I think that is clunkier than this way and also less thematic (presumably you could apply something like a static defense buff to a figure using the same tech as she uses, but it felt weird). Since he now gets the benefit for Hussite Charge for the whole round after he charges in I felt like a -1 defense drop was more suitable - I could also see it thematically applying only to small/medium figures if he needs more theme or a slight power hit, but it is nice to be able to defense drop Q9 or other big things backed by Raelin a bit. EDIT: And an extra note on him: I don't think he should be Valiant personality, actually, to not have any chance to take on some of Alastair's role in 4th Mass builds at lower figure totals. There are many others that could work for him just as well (Bold, Inspiring, Resolute, Noble, even Militaristic potentially - there's an argument he could go to Einar even rather than Jandar, and I wouldn't mind that, but I felt like overall Jandar made more sense for him). Last edited by Shadowking; March 29th, 2023 at 04:58 PM. |
#5105
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#5106
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Hmm, do you mean like it doesn't add enough stuff to how differently he plays when it's "active"? Or like, it's not good enough to bother trying to do "the thing" with him? I had a few versions with different SAs using the previous template (a "piercing charge" that was forced to hit an adjacent unit to the target as well, one that dealt him damage if he didn't wound anything to represent the potential danger of a failed charge and to make using it more of a decision) but in the end those mostly felt less satisfying to me. I like Dupuis's design as a sort of "run around the battlefield taking tactical engagements" cavalry hero, Jan here is trying to be more of a "get a big initial charge turn off and then have to decide whether to stay in a bogged down melee with your kinda middling base stats, but likely against the highest priority target (since that's probably why you charged them in the first place), or try to break off and charge something else but risk disengagements etc". Evar Scarcarver and Siege do both have relatively simple bonuses for their use of similar mechanics, but I'm not sure if they would pass muster on this for you here if not for just already being part of the game as a baseline.
|
#5107
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
So one way to do that would be: When Jan Sobieski is engaged, add 2 to his defense vs attacks from non-adjacent figures.and if you want to emphasize the cavalry advantage you could even add something like ... and adjacent small or medium figures.and make the special attack just be: Hussite Charge Special AttackThis is basically the same theme as what you had before, but there's no need for any marker. I would probably also go with a normal attack of 4. Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#5108
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
I do however worry that "defense bonus while engaged only" doesn't really feel like it's part of a charging power, which the movement conditional did quite well I felt (and that was also part of it), but maybe that's just me and it'd be fine? It can also cause some somewhat odd gameplay against ranged commons where they'll disengage with the one he's fighting and then fire into him, but I suppose Wait then Fire can't do that super cleanly since it'll drop their bonus. I feel like even if it's not this exactly there'll be something that'll work though. I could honestly even just give him the Evasive 2 from the Elite Onyx Vipers, I feel like a fast cavalry figure could just have that effect passively potentially and if his special is instead the thing compelling him to move a lot (and he's otherwise stuck with his middling base stats) it'd work out cleaner; like this? I do like how nice and clean this looks and it plays essentially exactly the same as the previous in like, 70% of cases or something (he's a bit stronger being parked on glyphs in ranged MUs, but it's a lot of points for a glyph holder if he isn't getting to run around fighting; also in the specific instance when he's facing a lot of ranged units, has reached melee and is not continuing to charge around - but there since he's up close the ranged units can typically just swarm him and get their normal base attack dice against his 3 defense). Be interested to hear your thoughts VS the older ones, and the abilities you proposed. I did also change him to Noble personality over Valiant for the aformentioned thing with 4th Mass, but maybe Bold would be better to fit his mechanics). Last edited by Shadowking; March 29th, 2023 at 07:24 PM. |
#5109
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
That's much better! I'm not sure evasive 2 is the best way to represent the advantage of being mounted, but you've got the idea of what I was saying about complexity for sure.
Also note that your version of the special attack let's him circle a figure to get the charge. I'd suggest take it back to your customs thread for more tweaks and then do some playtesting to make sure it feels the way you want it to on the battlefield. Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#5110
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
For a "charging but not yet engaged" defensive bonus, you could re-theme this from Darkprowl Thrall:
Quote:
Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#5111
|
||||
|
||||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Quote:
Quote:
|
#5112
|
|||
|
|||
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Ah, right, I *was* aware you could circle figures to activate it (it didn't come up much in the testing games for activating the original power with markers, because it's actually quite hard to circle a double-spaced figure around a unit and not get blocked up by terrain or other figures) but did not think of the fact that you could just "hop" between the same couple of spaces to make it work. I don't love that it lets the opponent cheese it back by just moving their figure up to within 3 spaces, and even if he moves up more than that behind them he doesn't get the effect, but it's better that way than letting him basically always get it unless he's literally always able to get it unless fully surrounded. You could maybe get away with a wording like "moved through at least five different/unique spaces this turn" so he couldn't double back on himself? But I'm not sure if that runs into rules issues or not - if not I'd prefer it but the Templar one seems fine.
With that in mind (and I think I prefer the Darkprowl Thrall-type ability over Evasive? It seems to make more sense in terms of the theme) here's where I am at now. The main differences are Hussite Charge going up to 5 attack but only applying the defensive drop to small and medium figures, and now I think he plays a lot nicer in terms of the delta between his base and his charge attack while not being able to just annihilate a high-cost large hero in one turn with 5 attack and 2 defense drop. I managed to play a couple more games with mostly this version of him this morning (with Evasive over the Thrall ability, and without Templar wording, but obv. I never did the "bounce around the same 2 spaces" exploit in the games), including a particularly fun one with Knights and Gilbert against MacDirks and Kafnirra, where he mostly stayed back until the late-game and then was able to get a charge off into the MacDirk backlines over 2 turns, got attacked down to just 2 remaining life from his full 6 by the MacDirk counterattack, and then took a risky disengage to get out and ride around the road to skewer Kafnirra's last two wounds with his Hussite Charge, as well as squeezing out a couple wounds onto the MacDirk army from a Wannock glyph before going down. I think overall he's probably weaker than Alastair is as a baseline, but the extra defense against ranged is nice into some match-ups (I ran him against Mohicans, Teeth and a custom Tribesman hero I'm also working on this morning as well, where it was very handy), and he's much more specific in terms of his positioning and play - Alastair is more "point-and-click" to take down specific targets I think, whereas it seems as though you have to play Jan a lot better to get his max. value. He also feels stronger into certain medium heroes sometimes, and things vulnerable to specials (Alastair has the advantage of Overextend being able to clear out a screen and swing at the hero all in one turn which he lacks), and feels like he can be pretty good at punishing certain bad positioning from the opponent. All in all I've gone back and forth on his points a bit but I think around the 115-130 range seems pretty appropriate, since Alastair is pretty solid already and when played well in the right situation I do think Jan can come out stronger - it also seems better to be conservative with the point number, rather than try to push as low as possible, so I could see 125 or 130 being more appropriate. Regardless though, he's been pretty fun to play with! |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
C3G Dredd'verse workshop | Tornado | C3G Legacy | 1080 | July 19th, 2023 11:14 AM |
MiniatureGeek's Custom Workshop #1 | Miniature Geek | Other Customization & HS Additions | 14 | August 20th, 2009 10:37 PM |
Sci Fi Terrain by Games Workshop | RichardD | Custom Terrain & Obstacles | 12 | August 4th, 2009 02:38 PM |
Bad_Calvin's Workshop - update 4-7 | bad_calvin | Custom Terrain & Obstacles | 54 | June 5th, 2009 09:09 PM |