Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

[lonewolf]

Originally Posted by Jexik

I guess the particular comment I was replying to was merely saying that "not making mistakes" isn't a sufficient reason for a player being 'the best,' but certainly good.

I guess I was trying to explain my criteria for evaluating my opponents....and maybe 'mistakes' isn't the best terminology. Most people don't make glaring mistakes when I play them, but there are almost always better moves that they could have made. This is what I was referring to as mistakes. Granted this is from my perspective, so you have to first believe that I have some sort of ability at this game as well!

I agree with Jexik.....if enough people who are in the know say that someone is the best, they probably are.

[rdhight]

Originally Posted by Jexik

Kinseth, I'm not really sure what more evidence you're looking for. Serious 'scapers (or perhaps just rich ones) fly or drive from Texas, New York, Arizona, Calfornia, and even Canada to go to GenCon. 2 out of the 3 years, spider_poison has won the main event. The one year he didn't win, his only day 1 loss was to the eventual tournament winner, MattserTruckRally. He has played in more tournaments than just about everyone except Rÿchean, and I don't think anyone has gone undefeated as many times as he has. Lonewolf, Rÿchean, and pretty much anyone who has played him acknowledge him as one of, if not the best player that they've faced.

Until someone else can duplicate that kind of success, he's the best player there is when it comes to tournaments.

In determining the very best, pretty much every sport and game is at the mercy of incomplete tests *cough*BCS*cough*. Maybe there are a hundred scapers who only play home games and never visit this website or go to Gen Con who would beat the snot out of anyone who's ever posted here, but we'll never know. If SP is the best extant player, he deserves respect for that, even if the tests that determined it aren't all-encompassing. Which they never will be.

Originally Posted by dok

I still love their synergy with Braxas, too. Aldin, Jexik, and I have been kicking around the Braxas, Migol, Dwarvesx3 build at 530. I guess you would suggest that the 460 point build with Dwarvesx2 would work well - this means Migol plays a bit more agressively but I could see it working. I suppose that you could make a strong argument for a variant like Marro Warriors at 510, too.

Personally, when they're the bulk of my army, I like to balance my bonding squads and heroes as much as possible. You can use Sujoah or Tor-Kul-Na as a strike force, but I don't like having only a single hero to bond with if that group is going to be well over half my army. So yeah, I would be inclined to stick with two squads of dwarves and Migol. Now maybe the ability to move six spaces will sweeten the deal enough to make more dwarves worth it, I don't know.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Jexik

After hanging out at a bunch of tournaments with him and talking about armies and stuff over the last couple of years, he's one of the few people on this site that I legitimately think of as a friend. So yeah, it kind of irks me a bit when I perceive that people are downplaying his playing ability or taking a dump on his thread, even if that's not their explicit intent.

I certainly do not think I am taking a dump on this thread or downplaying his achievements. I think because I have not agreed hes the best in the world, you have taken it that way. Let's be clear, He could be the best in the world, my argument is there is not enough data IMO to declare him the best in the world/country. He is certainly up there based on winning 2 Gencons. There are plenty of tournament players from Texas/NE etc... that never make their way to Gencon, so I just can't call him the best in the world at this point in time because of the broad playing areas throughout the nation.

[Hahnarama]

Sorry Kinseth but I think you're wrong this one. I've see a lot of players and Spider is the best of the best.

2 for 3 @ GC.....Check

As far as folks not making it to GC...sorry man but GC tends to be the place where championships are held.

[damja]

Ok, serioulsy Kinseth, this is getting absurd. s_p is percieved as the best player in the world by many people. Furthermore, you have attacked people for defending these ranknings because they believe that he is the best player. Again, absurd.

Consider this analogy. Many people consider Roger Federer to be the best tennis player in the world. He has won many matches and tournaments over the past several years. He has also lost some matches and tournaments in the same stretch of time, yet he is still ranked the world #1 tennis player because of what he does consistantly against whoever is put in front of him. Perhaps there is someone in the world who could beat Federer more often that not, but just doesn't have the resources to compete on a weekly basis.

Many people consider Tiger Woods the best golfer in the world. He has won some tournaments in the past few years, but has not won many more. In fact he hasn't even played in many of them (some due to injury and some just not wanting to play every week). He is not ranked #1 in the world right now, but even his peers look at him as the person to beat every time he walks onto the course.

Both of these men are emulated by people trying to play their respective games like them, to think like them, and improve their game. So if someone says "I think the best way to play a forehand shot is X" or "The best grip for a short wedge shot is Y" because it's what the best in the world does, it's pretty hard to call that person biased.

Enter spider_poison. In the competitive setting, he has beaten everyone who has sat down in front of him consistantly. He has played in every tournament he can. Maybe there is someone out there in the world that could beat him regularly that I and the rest of the HSers community don't know about. Maybe that's you, maybe that's curseyoukahn (tell Constantine Egypt from Campbell's Online Civ game says hi), maybe it is some kid in Portugal named Pablo. It doesn't matter; spider_poison is the Roger Federer/Tiger Woods of 'Scape.

Perception is reality. Until that perception is changed, the reality is clear as day. Average Joe from Iowa is the best, and his words should be given some credit and those that defend them should not be considered biased simply because they think he is the best around.

[Kinseth]

I don't know how you can say my opinion is wrong, just like I can't say your opinion on SP being the best is wrong. He's the best you have seen.

GC is a great tournament, but again there are other big tournaments about. Some NESA events are large. For the most part, NESA players don't make it to Gencon, and I am sure there are other game groups that never had a majority of their players make it to Gencon.

Anyways, I feel like we are beating a dead horse here. Its the camp that thinks if you don't go to Gencon, you aren't elite. And those that never make it to Gencon who think that its not really that big of a deal(Me!). I don't think its hard to think there is outstanding players that never make it to Gencon who are active in other tournament scenes, that if they did go to gencon, would have a chance to win that event.

Heroscape seems like it still is in its Infancy in terms of tournament scene, and that it will still take some time before these types of matters can be determined. For now I do agree S_P(Never having seen him play, but based on other highly respected minds) that he is there for the title of best in the world. If this were the Kentucky Derby, he'd be the odds on favorite.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

he world/country. He is certainly up there based on winning 2 Gencons. There are plenty of tournament players from Texas/NE etc... that never make their way to Gencon, so I just can't call him the best in the world at this point in time because of the broad playing areas throughout the nation.

I think that's a fairly weak argument. Of course, not everyone goes to GenCon, but a representative sample from the major tournament playing areas do. If spider does better against these people than the non-attenders at GenCon do, then it's reasonable to assume a bit of transitivity in playing skill, and say spider is probably the best of all the players in all the tournament-playing areas.

The better argument is that there may be people who are completely outside the network of tournament players who are really skilled. If Hendal hadn't been at GenCon, for instance, how would we know there was a really good 'scaper down in Costa Rica? Or, to pick a personal example, I really had no idea how I stacked up against the tournament players here until I played lonewolf. Now I know I'm not as good as lonewolf... He's probably the only person who could give a reasonable assessment of how I'd do at GenCon or another competitive event.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by damja

Ok, serioulsy Kinseth, this is getting absurd. s_p is percieved as the best player in the world by many people. Furthermore, you have attacked people for defending these ranknings because they believe that he is the best player. Again, absurd.

Consider this analogy. Many people consider Roger Federer to be the best tennis player in the world. He has won many matches and tournaments over the past several years. He has also lost some matches and tournaments in the same stretch of time, yet he is still ranked the world #1 tennis player because of what he does consistantly against whoever is put in front of him. Perhaps there is someone in the world who could beat Federer more often that not, but just doesn't have the resources to compete on a weekly basis.

Many people consider Tiger Woods the best golfer in the world. He has won some tournaments in the past few years, but has not won many more. In fact he hasn't even played in many of them (some due to injury and some just not wanting to play every week). He is not ranked #1 in the world right now, but even his peers look at him as the person to beat every time he walks onto the course.

Both of these men are emulated by people trying to play their respective games like them, to think like them, and improve their game. So if someone says "I think the best way to play a forehand shot is X" or "The best grip for a short wedge shot is Y" because it's what the best in the world does, it's pretty hard to call that person biased.

Enter spider_poison. In the competitive setting, he has beaten everyone who has sat down in front of him consistantly. He has played in every tournament he can. Maybe there is someone out there in the world that could beat him regularly that I and the rest of the HSers community don't know about. Maybe that's you, maybe that's curseyoukahn (tell Constantine Egypt from Campbell's Online Civ game says hi), maybe it is some kid in Portugal named Pablo. It doesn't matter; spider_poison is the Roger Federer/Tiger Woods of 'Scape.

Perception is reality. Until that perception is changed, the reality is clear as day. Average Joe from Iowa is the best, and his words should be given some credit and those that defend them should not be considered biased simply because they think he is the best around.

You continue to miss my point, as do many. My point is that Heroscape is still too broad in tournament scene for there to be a clear cut championship event. Until you get this point, you will continue to take this personally.

[Aldin]

If we really wanted to stir the pot we'd do a Power Rankings list for individual players. I can see it now:

C+
Aldin - Has the opportunity to work in certain settings, but not really worth his points.

~Aldin, sharkishly

[dok]

Originally Posted by damja

Consider this analogy. Many people consider Roger Federer to be the best tennis player in the world. He has won many matches and tournaments over the past several years. He has also lost some matches and tournaments in the same stretch of time, yet he is still ranked the world #1 tennis player because of what he does consistantly against whoever is put in front of him. Perhaps there is someone in the world who could beat Federer more often that not, but just doesn't have the resources to compete on a weekly basis.

Actually there is someone who beats Federer more often than not - and it's the #1 ranked player in the world, Rafael Nadal. Still, Federer beat him the last time they played.

Your point is well taken; just making a factual correction.

[Kinseth]

There are many that say Federer's win at the French is tainted because he didn't beat Nadal.

Nadal was injured also, playing with bad Knees. Should we debate this?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aldin

If we really wanted to stir the pot we'd do a Power Rankings list for individual players. I can see it now:

C+
Aldin - Has the opportunity to work in certain settings, but not really worth his points.

~Aldin, sharkishly

You are hilarious Aldin.