NM24 - Process

[Lord Dragonix]

This still has the problem of acting like a second power activating after the first. After Nightcrawler moves you have to go back and pick a figure from where he started. What if Nightcrawler teleports adjacent to a figure that temporarily negates his powers? Is he now unable to move a figure? Both actions must be able to occur simultaneously. Otherwise, we have the problem above plus the whole bad memory issue I mentioned earlier.

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by Lord Dragonix

This still has the problem of acting like a second power activating after the first. After Nightcrawler moves you have to go back and pick a figure from where he started. What if Nightcrawler teleports adjacent to a figure that temporarily negates his powers? Is he now unable to move a figure? Both actions must be able to occur simultaneously. Otherwise, we have the problem above plus the whole bad memory issue I mentioned earlier.

Both actions can't occur simultaneously, because that's how Heroscape works. 2 actions can never happen at the same time in this game. With Theracus, there's 2 actions. Moving him, and placing the carried figure. They happen in that order, not at the same time. And I would say that if NIghtcrawler moved next to someone and his powers were negated before the other figure was moved, the figure would still be moved, but it's all worded in the same power. The power has already begun when he gets negated, so it must resolve before anything else happens.

[Lord Dragonix]

However, Theracus picks up a figure, moves while carrying the figure, and then deposits the figure immediately after the move. Thus, the two actions interweave together. The proposed wording for Nightcrawler has him pick a space, move, pick a figure, and finally move the figure. With this, there is a clear delineation between moving Nightcrawler and moving the figure, thus I would argue they are completely separate actions, and if Nightcrawler were negated after moving, the other figure could not follow. With Theracus the figure is placed immediately after moving, with the action of carrying that figure having already begun. Here, it would seem that he would have to finish carrying the figure before he could be negated. Not so with Nightcrawler, as he would be negated before the carrying ever began.

It just seems unnecessary to try to separate both the teleportation and carry actions. I prefer pick a figure to carry, pick a space, teleport to the space, and deposit the carried figure. So technically they aren't simultaneous, the carry action is the hard candy shell around the chocolatey center that is the teleportation.

I just realized Engagement Strike would work instead of the theoretical negation. Here, Engagement Strike would probably need to temporarily interrupt the move then carry style Bamf! that has been proposed, and in a worst case scenario, a dead Nightcrawler could not start to carry any figures. If you think Engagement Strike killing Nightcrawler wouldn't stop the carry action that had yet to actually begin, then Counter Strike killing Iron Man shouldn't stop his second attack from Double Attack.

[Aldin]

Technically, Theracus identifies a figure, moves, and then teleports that figure to an adjacent space. The flavor is that he is carrying the figure as he moves, but the mechanics are identify->move->teleport. I don't see any issue with multiple things happening within a single power. It's simply a matter of writing viable mechanics. Anyone playing Nightcrawler is going to get the flavor and theme.

~Aldin, jumpily

[Lord Dragonix]

Agreed, but the question is, does the order in which Nightcrawler carries out the steps within the carry and movement actions affect the ability to negate them? Imagine if Theracus's Carry was worded: After moving Theracus you may choose one small or medium figure that started the turn adjacent to Theracus. Place the chosen figure adjacent to Theracus.

If Theracus moved but was destroyed/negated by some effect immediately after moving, why would he then get to go back and use his Carry special power to move a figure. However, since the official carry action completes as he finishes moving, we at worst have a 20-sider decision to possibly allow the carry action to complete before the destruction/negation effect can take place, and at best we can deposit the chosen carried figure without question before the destruction/negation effect takes place.

I would guess the only reason a figure never gets actually picked up, is because of the question of what would happen to it if the carrier had no empty adjacent spaces to place it on. So to avoid this issue, a figure only gets picked before moving.

I don't see how my two separate powers idea works all that differently from how Theracus has Carry and Flying as separate powers. Would they not effectively mirror the official card enough?

Edit: Just spent a little bit working on this. Hope it helps clarify my position.

IF Theracus chooses an adjacent figure AND wishes to move at least 0 spaces, THEN Theracus may move at least 0 spaces AND places the chosen figure adjacent to Theracus after moving.

= IF A AND B, THEN C AND D

IF Theracus does not choose an adjacent figure AND wishes to move at least 0 spaces, THEN Theracus may move at least 0 spaces AND may not move any figures.

= IF -A AND B, THEN C AND -D

IF Theracus does not choose an adjacent figure AND does not wish to move at least 0 spaces, THEN Theracus may not move at least 0 spaces AND may not move any figures.

= IF -A AND -B, THEN -C AND -D

IF Nightcrawler chooses an adjacent figure AND a space to Bamf! to, THEN Nightcrawler may Bamf! at least 0 spaces AND places the chosen figure adjacent to Nightcrawler after moving with Bamf!.

= IF A AND B THEN C AND D

IF Nightcrawler does not choose an adjacent figure AND Nightcrawler chooses a space to Bamf! to, THEN Nightcrawler may Bamf! at least 0 spaces AND may not move any figures.

= IF -A AND B THEN C AND -D

IF Nightcrawler does not choose an adjacent figure AND does not choose a space to Bamf! to, THEN Nightcrawler must move normally AND may not move any figures.

IF -A AND -B THEN -C AND -D

I believe I have interpreted these powers correctly. This shows a logical symmetry between how Theracus carries figures and how I propose Nightcrawler will carry figures.

Aldin’s proposed wording:
IF Nightcrawler chooses a space to Bamf! to, THEN Nightcrawler may Bamf! at least 0 spaces. IF Nightcrawler Bamf!ed at least 0 spaces, AND Nightcrawler chooses a figure he started adjacent to, THEN Nightcrawler may move the chosen figure.

(IF B, THEN C) AND (IF C AND A, THEN D)

This doesn’t follow the same symmetry as previously established carry powers, so that is why I have been arguing against it.

[Aldin]

Okay, I think I understand what you're going for here. What about:

Originally Posted by Bamf!

Instead of moving normally, Nightcrawler may choose one space or two adjacent, same-level spaces within 6 clear sight spaces. Place Nightcrawler in one of the chosen spaces and optionally place a small or medium figure that started the turn adjacent to him in the other space. Figures moved by Bamf! are not subject to leaving engagement attacks.

I think that accomplishes the goal of moving both figures regardless of what happens to Kurt in the new space.

~Aldin, wondering if simultaneous movement of multiple figures is game breaking in some way he hasn't fully considered

[Lord Dragonix]

I think moving two figures simultaneously may actually be lightly game breaking, and moving one figure, then warping in another just isn't satisfying mechanically or thematically.

Still trying to get rid of that remembering where Nightcrawler started issue:
Instead of moving normally, you may choose one empty space within 6 clear sight spaces of Nightcrawler, and place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. Or, you may choose one small or medium figure adjacent to Nightcrawler and two adjacent same-level spaces within 6 clear sight spaces of Nightcrawler, and place Nightcrawler and the chosen figure on the chosen spaces. If a figure is engaged before moving with Bamf!, it will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

I think any attempt to word the power this way looks too clunky, though. I am really thinking a set of powers: Bamf! Carry and Bamf! are necessary for the desired mechanics and to avoid being clunky and to avoid the remembering where he started issue which still bugs me.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Lord Dragonix

Still trying to get rid of that remembering where Nightcrawler started issue

Now that the movement is simultaneous, there is no remembering involved, right? It's simply a test of adjacency stated in a mechanically correct way.

~Aldin, now where was I?

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

Originally Posted by Aldin

Okay, I think I understand what you're going for here. What about:

I think that accomplishes the goal of moving both figures regardless of what happens to Kurt in the new space.

~Aldin, wondering if simultaneous movement of multiple figures is game breaking in some way he hasn't fully considered

I thin kthat works well. There's not really any remembering because you will be doing the movement at the exact same time.

Or what about this. No remembering at all.

Instead of moving normally, you may choose one adjacent figure and one space within 6 clear sight spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. You must place the chosen figure on an empty, adjacent, same-level space to Nightcrawler to move it with Bamf! Figures moved by Bamf! never take leaving engagement attacks.

[Lord Dragonix]

Originally Posted by Aldin

and optionally place a small or medium figure that started the turn adjacent to him in the other space.

This, to me, sounds more like going back to look at where Nightcrawler started than choosing a figure back at the beginning of the move. I read it so that it seems like place Nightcrawler, choose a figure, place a figure are all happening simultaneously in terms of mechanics, but physically I would want to move Nightcrawler, pick a space to put the figure on (assuming one is available), go back and pick a figure from where Nightcrawler started, and place the figure to finish up the action.

Word wise, I would prefer the power read pick a figure, pick the spaces, place both figures.

Originally Posted by hi1hi1hi1hi1

Or what about this. No remembering at all.

Instead of moving normally, you may choose one adjacent figure and one space within 6 clear sight spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. You must place the chosen figure on an empty, adjacent, same-level space to Nightcrawler to move it with Bamf! Figures moved by Bamf! never take leaving engagement attacks.

This reintroduces the earlier question that was raised: Does Nightcrawler need to pick an adjacent figure in order to Bamf!? Or, can he teleport all by his lonesome? I think anyone that knows anything about Nightcrawler, knows the answer to this question, but the wording on the card leads one to believe otherwise.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

How's this one then

Instead of moving normally, you may choose one figure adjacent to Nightcrawler and one space within 6 clear sight spaces of Nightcrawler. Place Nightcrawler on the chosen space. You must place the chosen figure on an empty, adjacent, same-level space to Nightcrawler to move it with Bamf! Figures moved by Bamf! never take leaving engagement attacks.

[Lord Dragonix]

You ninja'd my post and then ninja'd my edit in response to the ninjaing. What are you? A ninja?