Heroscape: Age of Annihilation is here! Back it on Haslab!

[Master Roshi]

Originally Posted by caps

So I wrote some comparison analysis of the "it's not worth $250" arguments and thought I would repost it here:

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So there's two sides of the cost discussion. One side is "costs too much *for me*" which is a subjective thing I won't argue with. The other side is "costs more than it is worth" which is a bit more of an objectively verifiable statement and, I think, quite false.

Rise of the Valkyrie gave us 16 army cards for 30 figures as well as a boatload of terrain for an MSRP of $40 in 2004. The $$-per-ounce-of-plastic increased with each subsequent master set.

The terrain for this set is comparable to Rise of the Valkyrie + a Ticalla Jungle (which retailed for $20 when it came out in 2008 ) + Fortress of the Archkyrie (which retailed for $30 when it came out in 2006), so that gets us to $90, 16 cards, and 30 figures. So let's get the rest of the way to 71 unique figures...

we'll have to add
- Heroes of Bleakwoode for $13 + 5 figures
- Heroes of Barrenspur for $13 + 4 figures (1 large + 1 Huge)
- Orm's Return for $20 + 5 large figures (mix of large and huge)
- Heroes of Nostralund for $13 + 5 figures
- Heroes of Trollsford for $13 + 5 figures
- Gladiators and Agents for $13 + 6 figures
- Ninjas and Samurai for $13 + 6 figures
- Heroes of Durgeth for $13 + 5 figures

so that gets us to $214 for comparable terrain and 71 unique figures... in 2004-2006. $214 -> $250 is a 16% increase in cost. I'm not aware of anything that has had a cost increase as small as 16% since 2006. Have you looked at gas prices lately? Do you remember what they were in 2006? The price of plastic has gone way up since then (as has the price of labor, which is why these are unpainted).

Finally, shipping (a $40 value?) is free.

A related point is that this is also on the normal spectrum of prices for unpainted mini games of this size on kickstarter; a few go for less, many go for the same or more. And they usually don't have free shipping.

Bet, this post is bussin' fr fr no cap on god

On a serious note, I agree with the argument you're laying out. If an individual doesn't have the money to pay $250 on a single set then that's understandable; however, in terms of the value of the set itself, we're given a good deal relative to what they're charging us.

[Yodaking]

I don't know who is making the claim that what is being included in the Haslab campaign isn't worth $250+tax. Whoever it is, is in for a sticker price shock when they next go to buy a game or toy. Inflation is hitting every single market, it's not just gas and food prices that are rising.

Just look at it in some broad strokes. Say you averaged all the figures' value at $2 each. $2 for that Zed Nisbitt figure would be an unbelievable price, that thing is huge! $2/figure for the Ordo Borealis squad would be a good price. What would you pay to have those figures 3-D printed? That would be $142 for the 71 figures.

The 51 cards for those figures cost something. As does the glyphs, dice, wound markers, order markers, and rule book. Then you have the (plastic, not cardboard) terrain. 68 Wall Terrain Pieces + 74 Hex Tiles (Rock, Grass, Sand, & Water) + 9 Jungle Terrain Pieces. $108 for all that isn't crazy.

[caps]

I saw the "it's not worth $250" comment one too many times and was triggered; had to write up a comparison. It was even closer than I thought it would be.

[Dartheyegouger]

This might be a dumb questions for the admins, but you have a list of all the email addresses for every registered user on this site, correct? Would it be possible to send an email about the HasLab campaign to all of those accounts (that haven't opted out of communications)?

[skyknight]

One thing I keep seeing in the FB thread is that folks plan on 3D printing sets of the new stuff. I will be shocked if we don’t see Hasbro serve up cease and desists to every 3D printing site when this gets funded. I think they overlooked the old stuff because it was a dead game, but I can’t imagine they would look the other way with live IP’s. I do wonder if that will trigger them to just go after all 3D printed stuff and shut down the eBay market as well. I honestly don’t know the answer to the question, but I have seen Hasbro legal go all in for much less.

[foofoofun]

Originally Posted by skyknight

One thing I keep seeing in the FB thread is that folks plan on 3D printing sets of the new stuff. I will be shocked if we don’t see Hasbro serve up cease and desists to every 3D printing site when this gets funded. I think they overlooked the old stuff because it was a dead game, but I can’t imagine they would look the other way with live IP’s. I do wonder if that will trigger them to just go after all 3D printed stuff and shut down the eBay market as well. I honestly don’t know the answer to the question, but I have seen Hasbro legal go all in for much less.

I remember someone here or elsewhere saying that more complicated sculpts we’re potentially done at least in part to make 3d printing harder. Or at least that’s what has been happening to 40k minis. I’m not really knowledgeable about 3d printing or the like so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.

That aside if they go after people making the old sculpts they’re gonna definitely kill any shot the game has at returning. I would hope that hasbro’s experience with magic the gathering would let them understand that “black market” copies are beneficial when you can’t or don’t want to reproduce older product.

I’d also hope that they’d learned from their mistakes with their over policing of the my little pony brand. Turns out when the community needs access to some amount of copyrighted material to make derivative fan projects, removing all access kills the community’s ability to make fan works and advertise for the brand.

I guess what I’m saying is that I could see them doing it, but I would hope that they don’t. Business wise they’re only hurting themselves by attacking anything that they aren’t currently making and selling.

[skyknight]

I definitely don’t have any insight into whether they would or not. But I can’t imagine they would sit by idle if they saw their new stuff getting pirated and going up on eBay.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Dartheyegouger

This might be a dumb questions for the admins, but you have a list of all the email addresses for every registered user on this site, correct? Would it be possible to send an email about the HasLab campaign to all of those accounts (that haven't opted out of communications)?

We can't even get registration and password change emails to go through reliably, so I'm gonna say "no." lol

[Finrod]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

I don't know who is making the claim that what is being included in the Haslab campaign isn't worth $250+tax.

It's the absolute FIRST and most repeated response I've seen in other places (even more than "Unpainted? Forget this!").

I did the comparison multiple times on FB and BGG. Here's the way I wrote it, using fewer sets than Cap (but slightly higher prices):

Master Set - $45
Castle Set - $35
Jungle - $25
Large Figure Set - $25

This new offering includes the equivalent of all of the above and at least one more large figure set. So that adds up to $155 in 2004 dollars. Taking into account the value of the dollar from inflation, $1 in 2004 is $1.57 today. That makes this $243.35.

And that's not taking into account the higher costs of plastic OR the higher costs of shipping from China.

[Tornado]

If these claims are being made on other websites, why dispute them here?

[SuperSamyon]

The various cost analyst comparisons that have been shared since the campaign started seem to all make the erroneous assumption that the value of the set should only be measured against the contents of the set rather than the desirability of the set. As it's been stated before, if you are interested in everything in the set, $250 is a great value.

However, if you are not interested in all the figures in the box, the value drops significantly. You have to assume these two likely facts:

1. People won't play with the new figures until they are painted.
2. People won't paint figures that they don't like.

With that in mind, if someone looks at the contents of the box and realizes that they don't like the direction the majority of the figures are going (which is a complaint echoed repeatedly since the campaign has launched), then they realize that their $250 is going towards a few pieces of terrain and scenary along with a very large pile of miniatures that will have to be off loaded somehow. Given that they are uniques, they may also realize that unique figures don't often retain much value in the second hand market.

Hence why an a la cart approach is needed for a campaign like this. When presenting cost analysis, it's probably more realistic to assume that out of the 71 figures available, for some backers only a fraction or so figures will actually be painted and played with and the rest will be discarded.

It's truly one of the main drawbacks of unpainted miniatures in that people are less likely to give undesirable figures a shot if they first have to paint them. The original master sets had the advantage of presenting undesirable figures already painted and ready to go giving the players a chance to try them out.

For new painters, you'll soon learn quickly what the phrase "pile of shame" means. For those of us trying not to contribute to our piles of shame, 71 figures is more of a burden than a value.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Finrod

It's the absolute FIRST and most repeated response I've seen in other places (even more than "Unpainted? Forget this!").

That's not been at all my observation on BGG or Facebook. That said:

Originally Posted by Tornado

If these claims are being made on other websites, why dispute them here?

I haven't seen anyone saying that here, so no real reason to litigate it here.