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  #7153  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:32 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

The key point is that both the Broncos and Ravens have had much worse QB than the Lions as of late and still much better franchise success.

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  #7154  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:33 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Sounds good, Bats. Ever since the Lions got rid of Suh, I've had much more sympathy for their long-suffering fans.

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  #7155  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:42 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Kap was riding the bench for quite a while there for a reason, and it was before he started kneeling. As a casual fan you might think he was doing a great job, but the coaches he was playing for know much more about what is going on in the locker room and on the field. They know when he's not doing what the called play was asking him to do. They know what kind of leader he is and how the other players respond to him. They also talk to the other coaches around the league. If he still had top 16 QB potential, someone in the bottom half of the league would take on the media circus and roll the dice with him. Since he doesn't, they are going to try and find a top 16 QB somewhere else, if they can't find one they know their team lead by a less than top 16 QB has a better chance to find success without having the media circus in town.
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  #7156  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:44 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Sounds good, Bats. Ever since the Lions got rid of Suh, I've had much more sympathy for their long-suffering fans.
Lions fans were suffering for half a century before we got Suh.

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  #7157  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:50 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Yes. And yet, I was less sympathetic for a time because of him. I would watch him stomp somebody on a Sunday and then on Monday read about how sad the situation was, after the loss, because of the fans' disappointment. Hard to be sympathetic.

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  #7158  
Old September 7th, 2018, 04:54 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

For sure. I’ve yet to feel sympathetic for 90% of the franchises in the league. Probably the Browns. Maybe Minnesota.

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  #7159  
Old September 7th, 2018, 05:33 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Kap was riding the bench for quite a while there for a reason, and it was before he started kneeling. As a casual fan you might think he was doing a great job, but the coaches he was playing for know much more about what is going on in the locker room and on the field. They know when he's not doing what the called play was asking him to do. They know what kind of leader he is and how the other players respond to him. They also talk to the other coaches around the league. If he still had top 16 QB potential, someone in the bottom half of the league would take on the media circus and roll the dice with him. Since he doesn't, they are going to try and find a top 16 QB somewhere else, if they can't find one they know their team lead by a less than top 16 QB has a better chance to find success without having the media circus in town.
I read a really good article the other day of which, sadly, I do not remember the source. At any rate, one of the things it talked about that made a lot of sense to me is that QBs aren't simply generically good or bad, but are suited to specific systems and that many of the QB "failures" in the league probably have a lot to do with...

Thought break - it was an article on Bill Walsh, talking about (among many other things) his push to get that failure of a QB, Steve Young, away from the Bucs.

...bad scheme fits. It pointed out that OCs tailoring their scheme to the skill set of a QB has been demonstrated to generate success. One thing the article claims happens is that a new coach comes in and they want to run their scheme and then they try to fit a "NFL caliber" QB into that scheme. Sometimes it's a good fit. Sometimes notsomuch.

Anyhoo, all that to say that I think Kaep is more than capable of being a top 16 QB in this league with an OC who tailors the offense to him. I'm just not sure there are many OCs that want to run the type of offense that would be.

~Aldin, optomistically

ETA Here's the money quote
Quote:
What Walsh knew better than anyone in the game was that the key to success in the passing era of the NFL was to marry the right quarterback to the right scheme. (Itís much harder than it sounds, trust me.) Most of the time, when the quarterback and the system clash, itís the quarterback who goes.

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Last edited by Aldin; September 7th, 2018 at 05:51 PM.
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  #7160  
Old September 7th, 2018, 05:33 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
Kap was riding the bench for quite a while there for a reason, and it was before he started kneeling.
What? Kaep started every game where he was healthy from when he took over from Alex Smith in 2012 until he suddenly couldn't find a job. He played hurt in 2015 and eventually went on IR. He had multiple offseason surguries and wasn't ready at the start of 2016. Once he was reasonably healthy he won back the starter role and was miles better than Blaine Gabbert (granted, not saying much), but not good enough to elevate that abysmal niners roster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
As a casual fan you might think he was doing a great job, but the coaches he was playing for know much more about what is going on in the locker room and on the field. They know when he's not doing what the called play was asking him to do.
Is this retired NFL player a casual fan? Does this detailed film analysis show signs of ignorance of how the guy plays? Or this one?

The idea that he's so bad at running plays out of the pocket that he doesn't merit a roster spot just doesn't withstand analysis.

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Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
They know what kind of leader he is and how the other players respond to him.
Everything I've read from teammates has suggested that his teammates liked him and he was mostly a quiet, unassuming presence in the locker room. Maybe not the greatest leader, but not a cancer in the clubhouse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
If he still had top 16 QB potential, someone in the bottom half of the league would take on the media circus and roll the dice with him. Since he doesn't, they are going to try and find a top 16 QB somewhere else, if they can't find one they know their team lead by a less than top 16 QB has a better chance to find success without having the media circus in town.
Why is the standard top 16 potential? The league employs well over 60 quarterbacks. Even if we set aside players in their rookie contracts, Kaepernick is better than about half of them - probably more. This is not about talent, or system, or potential, or any of that. The guy is a better quarterback than a bunch of veterans who have jobs.

I get the "media circus" argument. Once we're willing to admit that he's good enough quarterback to be on a roster, then we can discuss whether he's worth the attention that his political stances bring. That's at least a fair argument. There's a couple problems with that argument, though:
  1. There were at least 3 or 4 teams last year who weren't handing the keys over to a young QB who could have improved their starting QB by signing Kaepernick. One of those teams made the AFC championship game!

  2. Sometimes your backup QB matters! The Packers essentially cast away a potential playoff season by not having a competent backup for Rodgers. The Titans nearly lost their playoff spot because they managed 10 points against Miami when Mariota went down and they had to turn to Matt Cassel.

    And those are the injuries that did happen. There could have been others. What if Cam Newton had been out for a few weeks? Do the Panthers make the playoffs trotting Derek Freaking Anderson out there for three games? I think not.

I can understand a team with a young starter, or a bad team with a decent starting QB and a reasonably competent backup (Colts, for example) not wanting to bring in Kaepernick. But a good team with a bad backup, or a bad starter? It doesn't seem to make football sense. But then, it's not about football.

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  #7161  
Old September 7th, 2018, 06:02 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Maybe Minnesota.
Your sympathies are appreciated. Agony is becoming an expected side effect of being a Vikings fan. There are 3 losses in my lifetime that effect me emotionally more than I care to admit. And that doesn't even include last year's NFC championship embarrassment.
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  #7162  
Old September 7th, 2018, 06:04 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

I still want y’all to lose against the Lions though.

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  #7163  
Old September 7th, 2018, 06:06 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

Seems like you have blinders on to me. There are so many factors that influence a teams decision process. As Aldin just mentioned, scheme fit is a bit one, not every QB fits into every system and teams don't just overhaul their entire playbook mid-season when their QB1 goes down for a guy signed off the street. If they sign or trade for a guy mid-season he's expected to run the offense they already have in place. It's not just the QB who is a scheme fit either, the rest of the players are brought in to fit that scheme. Even the O-line has different blocking scheme on different teams and a Guard who is good in one scheme isn't necessarily good in another one. Brandon Weedon was absolutely terrible in Dallas when Tony went down, and he was already on the team and thus should have been familiar with the system, but it still wasn't a good fit for him. Dallas thought they could make it work, which is why they signed him, but they ended up being wrong. He went to the Texans the next year and looked much better in that scheme.

Another factor is the salary cap, teams just can't blow big money on short term patches. Elway already made it clear that they were interested in Kap at once point but he wanted too much money. If the player thinks he's worth more than a team thinks he worth to them then they go unsigned. Dez Bryant is finding that out right now, is the league colluding vs. him too? Even the 'no longer the stud he once was' Dez is still better than a bunch of #2 & #3 WRs in the league right now, but Dez wants to get paid like a #1, which he is not viewed as anymore.

As for the retired NFL player, never heard of that guy before but yes some NFL players are just casual fans and some are even less than that. Donavan McNabb was once surprised when an over time game ended in a tie, even casual fans know what the NFL OT rules are. Playing the game does not make you an expert on what a QB is doing on another team. It's kind of sad you even tried pointing to a 'former NFL player' as knowing more than the OC & QB coach of the team he's playing for. Why didn't SF try to resign Kap if he was so great? They gave him many, many chances and worked with him directly, yet they decided they would be better off going in a new direction.
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  #7164  
Old September 7th, 2018, 06:08 PM
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Re: Sports: NFL

I'd rather lose to the Lions than the Packers.
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