Worse luck EVER in this game

[Wytefang]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

I fixed backgammon because it was too dependent on the luck of the dice. Now we just move three and four each turn. It removes the frustrating luck factor. Of course, it's also very, very boring.

Then it was probably not the right fix for that game. Tinker with it a bit and you may find a better solution.

[Tornado]

Saying that bad rolls alone should not lose a game is ludicrous. You can take a 1000 point army versus Marcu and lose if you roll blanks every time. The averages do not always work themselves out. If they started to average out for me right now I would win on sheer luck alone for a good year before my rolls would average out. I commonly go entire games losing initiative. If this never happens to you perhaps you are one of the lucky few who roll over average on a consistent basis.
I have a couple friends who almost always roll good. Six out of six skulls are common place (I hear 'Yatzee' often) where I am tickled pink to get three out of six. If you do not think this is an advantage, you are crazy. Can it be overcome? Sometimes, but luck easily trumps skill in this game.
Next time you play a casual game tell your opponent you want to lose initiative every time and that you will not except any roll over average and let me know if you win... peace

If you want a great game based purely on skill and strategy I suggest Stratego. There are great versions like LotR if the original is a little bland for you. I am personally undefeated in 20 plus years. No one will play me but they really enjoy smashing my face in at Heroscape. Game on.

[Wytefang]

It just comes down to how much luck you find tolerable, I guess.

While I may have my own personal tweaks in place to make the game better (for me - each to their own, of course), plenty of fans are content to dance with lady fate and still have loads of fun.

Sometimes I'm happy to just play normally, other times I enjoy playing with my own modifications. I know that I've heard Colby and others say many times that's one of the really fun things about HS - that you can create your own customs and have fun with the system.

Plus, it IS fun when you do occasionally beat that inherently lucky dice-roller (in my experience that's been Tchop - he rolls incredibly well, all the time - it's uncanny). LOL

[SuperflyTNT]

Originally Posted by Wytefang

I'll make whatever adjustments I like and I guess you'll have to deal with that. :P

Hey, whatever floats your boat. The line in the sand is drawn when you start proclaiming that everyone's all wrong and the game is broken. Because you know better.

Secondly, no game designer, no matter how loftily revered, is perfect. I know that's a shocker (gasp!) but it's what it is. BoardGameGeek alone is proof that plenty of us enjoy tweaking or fixing games that don't live up to what we'd hoped they might be (for each of us). If that's terribly offensive to you, I'm not sure what to tell you, man.

Give me a break. Difference between houseruling and calling something broken. Big difference. You have to remember that I have put an outstandinly popular Ravenloft scenario together, proof that I agree with you on houseruling.

Finally, you're utterly incorrect - I made no design decisions at all for Mutant Chronicles. I came onboard at the very last minute, just before launch. I ONLY did marketing style work in the last month before it's release which primarily included demoing at Origins, providing feedback on how to boost sales (I lent my supportive weight - small as it was based on my rank in the company - behind the change from collectible to fixed-purchase, that was the main change I wanted to see happen and Christian made the right call, even if it was last-minute), and finally, I wrote many of the website's short stories (which by every account in the FFG forums were very well-regarded). You may want to research what you say before trying to insult someone.

I was messing with you, but apparently it's a sore spot.

[Billtrumpet25]

Everyone remember this:

The game of Heroscape may be based on luck (the degree of which is of course debatable), and I understand the frustration this causes when undesirable rolls are had time and time again.

There is no need to take this frustration out on others, however. And it is certainly unwise (and frankly, awefully childish) to insult others who enjoy Heroscape for the right reasons on this site. We all have bad days, after all. Sure, get mad at the game if it floats your boat, but at the end of the day, does it really matter? I admit I'll get angry if I have a few bad rolls in a row (even a few bad games), but I get over it. What should matter is who you play with. The memories that spawn from these games (which may end in your defeat) are often more important than the game itself...

And that's what I gotta' say about that!

[Agent Minivann]

Originally Posted by Wytefang

BoardGameGeek alone is proof that plenty of us enjoy tweaking or fixing games that don't live up to what we'd hoped they might be (for each of us).

The problem is that BGG is alone is proof that there are plenty of people who think that there are plenty of games that need tweaking and fixing. There is a sizable amount of BGG users who think that a game with dice at all is inherently flawed. You could almost say the same thing for games that lack wooden cubes. Just because a tweak and fix exists does not mean that the tweak or fix is worth a crap, or even remotely necessary.

[Tornado]

Well said Billtrumpet25. It is a game to be enjoyed by all. That is the whole point, unless you are DA. Love, peace, and 'scape.

[Wytefang]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Hey, whatever floats your boat. The line in the sand is drawn when you start proclaiming that everyone's all wrong and the game is broken. Because you know better.

Give me a break. Difference between houseruling and calling something broken. Big difference. You have to remember that I have put an outstandinly popular Ravenloft scenario together, proof that I agree with you on houseruling.

I was messing with you, but apparently it's a sore spot.

There's no "line in the sand" when I was extremely clear and even went so far as to specify exactly what I was referring to. Never said the entire game was broken but I did say that one part of it has bothered me for a while. Also, I in no way said "everyone else is wrong." Please don't put words in my mouth.

And as for the difference between House-ruling and calling something broken - people rarely just house-rule something that they're content with. In MOST (key word) cases, they change something because they themselves have an issue with a part of a game - either they perceive it's broken or they think it could be better. Semantics doesn't change that fact.

Finally, your excuse that it was just some friendly ribbing over a job where I was laid-off (along with several other people) due to the economy that then led to me not having a job for two years, doesn't cut it. You knew what you were saying was both rude and insulting. And you wondered why it seemed like a sore spot?

Just watch the knee-jerk reactions next time and it'll all be good. It's awesome and a testament to this very fun game that you love it SO much that you feel compelled to defend it - but in this case, you most certainly went overboard. It's just a game, dude. Supposed to be fun.

[Billtrumpet25]

Originally Posted by Wytefang

There's no "line in the sand" when I was extremely clear and even went so far as to specify exactly what I was referring to. Never said the entire game was broken but I did say that one part of it has bothered me for a while. Also, I in no way said "everyone else is wrong." Please don't put words in my mouth.

And as for the difference between House-ruling and calling something broken - people rarely just house-rule something that they're content with. In MOST (key word) cases, they change something because they themselves have an issue with a part of a game - either they perceive it's broken or they think it could be better. Semantics doesn't change that fact.

Finally, your excuse that it was just some friendly ribbing over a job where I was laid-off (along with several other people) due to the economy that then led to me not having a job for two years, doesn't cut it. You knew what you were saying was both rude and insulting. And you wondered why it seemed like a sore spot?

Just watch the knee-jerk reactions next time and it'll all be good. It's awesome and a testament to this very fun game that you love it SO much that you feel compelled to defend it - but in this case, you most certainly went overboard. It's just a game, dude. Supposed to be fun.

And the whole point of this negative banter is.....?

All I'm seeing ultimately is a "you said this" or "you said that, but that's not what I said". Quite sad.

Not trying to provoke, hurt, or frustrate, but I get a kick out of Wytefang's assertion that the game and this environment itself (I added the environment part) is "[s]upposed to be fun", yet Wytefang is the individual getting very defensive. It seems he is the one with the knee jerk reactions here (from a neutral point of view). Ironic. I'm sorry you were laid-off, Wytefang, and I know times are tough, but don't take that frustration out on others. I repeat: what good will it do? We all have troubles from time to time, but it makes us stronger.

I wish you luck in finding a new job, if you have not yet already found one (I don't know how far back you are referencing the fact you were laid off). Send out the resumes, my dear fellow! You will get nibbles. My dad was recently laid off along with 6,000 others across the nation. He complained, yes, but he's sent out job apps like I suggested, and he already (in a month) has gotten some nibbles. No job yet, but there's progress.

On an unrelated topic (of jobs--yet this can pertain to the whole "luck" concept), I saw a movie (can't remember which one) that said "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity". This is, I think, an important thing we should remember when talking about games, jobs, or anything for that matter.

This sniping is not necessary. I take it that (with the exception of a handful or so people, including myself) we are all adults here and can behave in a manner consistent with our age.

[SuperflyTNT]

I hear FFG is hiring again, Tony. Maybe give them a shot.

And were I to truly care about offending someone's sensibilities, I'd cease to be me.

[SuperflyTNT]

And the kickoff...

Originally Posted by Wytefang

One other solution to the annoying over-reliance on luck in the game design, is to house-rule all the lame, unreliable special powers utilizing D20 rolls. Just make powers that are supremely potent a one-shot or limited use deal. Works really well and you get results that match the abilities of the players rather than the random results of the dice.

...then the return...

Whatcha gonna do? You fix the game! At least it worked for my issues with it, anyway.

...and now, the punt...

Well I'm not going so far as to say it's "broken" - my use of the word "fix" was only intended to refer to a specific aspect of the game that I feel needs improving.

I wonder at the reason one would invest heavily in a game that they didn't like the design of, but hey, who am I to question you. My point is that the overwhelming majority of players like the randomness. Yeah, some people complain (as I have) about it, but at the end of the day, it's part of the game that leads to exciting moments, death-defying rolls, and bitter losses. It's what makes Heroscape, Heroscape.

and removes the annoyance of making some clever tactical decisions on the battlefield only to have your special ability randomly not work.

"clever tactical decisions", huh? So the game is without clever tactical decisions? If you KNOW something is going to work, it's not all that clever. It's predictable. Imagine Atlaga if you knew, 100% of the time, that you'd get the kill. How about Chilling Touch? THAT, my friend, breaks the game.

As I see it, having a randomly-activated special ability would be like playing Unreal Tournament and having your gun's secondary powerful ability just randomly jam every once in a while.

I'm sure no soldier has ever faced a weapon jam in the heat of combat. Oh, wait, it's the reason Glocks and Kalashnikovs are revered and the M-16 requires incredibly detailed maintenance and was a battlefield failure initially.

It's just not fun (and most people would find that incredibly frustrating and annoying to boot). Instead people would just decide to not use that secondary feature and that's counter-productive to providing it in the first place.

Yeah, you're right. All those folks at events all over the world, all the people who've played Heroscape for going on ten years, all the folks who bought thousands of dollars of this game are all cringing every time a power comes along with a D20. I know that I've never in my lifetime seen Braxas use his special power. I'd bet that Sir Gilbert's a total shelf toad since his special is so utterly random. Heck, I'd be sure that Cyprien's never used Chill Touch, I mean after all, it's a D20. Nobody believes in them.

I'm calling a spade a spade here. No more, no less.

[Wytefang]

I honestly don't care enough about this game (or any, really) to sit and argue about it. I consider the D20 randomness to be problematic and (for me) a frustrating issue.

I house-rule as the mood hits me - sometimes I use them as written, sometimes not. I don't care if you like it differently (thought I'm glad you are enjoying the game) nor do I care if you don't like that I house-rule things.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Even if we can't see eye-to-eye on this aspect of the game, I'm still always impressed with your generosity in the Trade threads. That's cool.

Peace.