The Book of Cheshire

[Yodaking]

Finished up the hero tests and posted them so you could see how things played out. I'll hold off on the team test until after I hear back from you on whether you are happy with her coming in at a much lower point cost. If so I'll knock out the team tests sometime soon. If you would rather have her come in at the 160-180 range (Black Widow/Elektra territory) then I do have some ideas for how her powers could be tweaked to be more effective. I'll hold off on posting those for now though as if they are not needed no point it bringing them up.

[TrollBrute]

Well, being played almost solely against ranged figures is certainly going to make her feel underwhelming. I'd try her against some more melee figures first (ones without AM) or try an army test. She'll play much differently in an army test where she's not the focus of the army. An extra piece in a Star-Lord+ Meteorite build for example, or a heavily ranged Assassin build.

[quozl]

She should have range, IMO.

[japes]

I'd like to raise her defense to 5 to make her harder to take down up close and also to make Stealth Dodge have more teeth. I had debated on bringing that up earlier but thought it would make her too powerful. I think making Ranged attacks against her should be extremely tough but if the fear of engaging her isn't there then it fails a little. Upping her defense helps both of those aspects in that even if you do take the risk she can still defend herself up close like a master of martial arts and and master assassin should. Some sources (I know) have her as second only to Shiva for female martial artist/assassins.

If that doesn't bring her up we can revisit Acrobat powers so she could jump away and set up seduction again.

Sorry YK I haven't read all that you wrote yet but my son will be reading it to me later.

As far as her having range...I only remember her having a blow dart sort of thing in Young Justice Cartoon and don't have a lot of memories of her having range in the comics but I'm not 100% on that. Perhaps @Karat or @Spidey'tilIDie could chime in?

[Yodaking]

So what I'm seeing here is that you all don't want her to be a 130 point figure than? The card is just fine as is at 130 points. The only reason to change anything here is if you all really feel that based on theme she should be on the same level as the 160-180 point heroes we already have. If that is the case, then I have no problem with doing just that. I don't think she needs a ranged att. or a different def. power to achieve that either. I have a pretty busy week/weekend ahead of me already but when I get some free time I'll post my proposed changes to achieve your goal.

[Karat]

130 doesn't feel bad for her IMHO. I don't honestly know her in a comic sense, just from wiki research, so that would be a Spidey area, but I could see her having throwing knives as depicted in several images of her.

[Viegon]

I wouldn't recommend rushing into any big changes. She's naturally going to show weaker in 1v1 games than she will in army tests. Maybe scale her points down some (140-150?), but it'd be best to see how she plays in a couple of full games before making changes. My .

[Yodaking]

I have some time now to dive more into the analysis I have for this figure. I'll start by addressing some confusing comments by others, then I'll follow up this post with another post that contains my thoughts on positive changes that could be made to the design if that is the direction the LD wants to go in.

I'm perplexed by the idea that she will somehow suddenly play better than her one on one tests indicate once she is added to a larger team. I figure like Starlord boosting her base stats might make her look better but that is on Starlord and represented in his point cost, not hers. While there are many, many C3G figures that do perform much better in team games than in one on ones' I don't see how Cheshire would be one of them. She has no Area of Effect or multiple target powers that would increase in value once presented with multiple targets. She has no team boosting or leadership abilities. Her Assassin synergy is received rather than given and already baked into the price of those units that can make good use of her, plus that synergy is no more impactful than the Crime Fighter, Fighter, Agent, & Insane synergy not being used by her one on one opponents. Her power set is very much that of an individual unit.

I can, and will, make a much better argument that her points could end up going down once team tests are completed. Lets break down her powers and analyze how they would be impacted by a team test.

Stealth Dodge - This is a power that dates back to the very first Heroscape release, it is a well known quantity. One on one tests where the opponent can make only a single ranged attack per OM reveal is it's best value. Once team tests start up you have multiple figures in play and two things start to happen.

1. Multiple ranged attacks per OM from squads & bonded heroes leads to multiple defense rolls per OM reveal, and thus multiple chances for a non-shield def. roll. This makes the power seem weaker, not stronger, since you are now more likely to take 1 or more wounds from a ranged attack.
2. Multiple figures in play (with multiple activation's per OM) makes it easier to surround and engage the figure. This makes the power's effectiveness weaker than in one on one tests as once engaged it no longer has any effect on the outcome.

Ruthless Seduction - This is a variation on the engagement strike powers that have been around for a while and are a known quantity. They shine best in one on one tests with Melee figures as the melee figures can be forced to engage and face the d20 roll. Joker & HQ were both forced to engage Cheshire in both of their one on one tests, for 4 highlight reel tests. Once introduced to team tests, the opposing team is much more likely to have a ranged attack option in play that can allow you to delay risking an engagement and even potentially avoid the d20 roll completely for the game. The only way a team test helps these powers is if you add a teammate that can move your opponents figures into engagement when they don't want to do so. Magneto & Mystique are a decent combo, but again the points value boost to Mystique is already baked into cost of Magneto. A Magneto & Cheshire pairing actually hurts the value of Cheshire's power somewhat here since her power takes away a turn in addition to dealing 1W, but since Magneto is moving the figure into engagement when it's not it's turn, it does not lose a turn.

Furthermore, the specifics of this 'engagement' based power state that it only works when she is engaged with exactly one figure. Thus the introduction of multiple figures in a team test weakens this power somewhat. If I have Superman & Catwoman on my team and I'm facing Cheshire, I send Catwoman in to engage her first. If the d20 roll hits, Catwoman loses 1 of her 9 life and loses her attack, not all that big of a deal. Then on the very next OM reveal after engaging Cheshire with Catwoman I send Superman adj. to her and hit her with a big stick without any risk at all of seeing a d20 roll cost me my big attack and dealing 1 auto W to a figure that has a top notch defense. Sacrificing a common squad pawn or two to negate the power before I send in my hero is another no brainer option when facing this power in a team test.

Deadly Poisons - This power is solely a one on one unique hero battle power. It has no effect on common squads or common heroes, both of which could show up in a team test. It's effectiveness or usefulness does not change when more than one unique hero is in play. As for what types of heroes are most effected by it, the wound requirement makes it most effective vs. lower defense figures. At the same time it can have the biggest game impact when turning a 1W attack into a 3-4W attack on a difficult to hit figure. That is where the Spider-man, Flash, HQ figures live. They have a low enough defense that Cheshire has a fair shot at scoring a hit when the defensive powers don't kick in, and scoring a bunch of wounds at one time really hurts them.

[Yodaking]

Again I will reiterate that she plays just fine as a 130 point figure, so if the LD is happy with that price range I am happy to continue on with the team tests at that point level without changing a thing. However, if the desire is there to have her significantly better than Mocking Bird & Harley Quinn (both 130 points) than here are the changes I would implement.

Deadly Poisons - I don't know a lot about this character and how she uses poisons specifically, but I do know a lot about the use of poisons in the general sense. There are countless uses of poison in books, comic books, tv shows, movies, & cartoons over the years. Poisons are generally used to defeat an opponent perceived to be stronger than the poisoner is. We have seen on screen more than once where a character receives a small little scratch on their cheek or forearm that just breaks the skin and because the blade was poisoned it is enough to take that character down. In heroscape, 1W of damage kills a common everyday policeman, bodyguard, or soldier. A scratch on the arm would be a 'hit' (a skull rolled on attack) that was 'blocked' (enough shields rolled to prevent a wound from being inflicted), while dealing 1W in damage is in effect dealing a mortal or significant wound. So I don't really understand why Cheshire is required to deal a mortal/significant wound in order for her to deliver her poison. A more accurate reflection of her using poison to defeat a superior opponent in C3G would be to have her deal poison damage when she hits an opponent but fails to deal a grievous wound. So this is what I would do to represent her poison use.

POISONED BLADES/CLAWS/WEAPONS
Whenever Cheshire attacks a Unique Hero with a normal attack and rolls at least 1 skull, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 1–14, nothing happens. If you roll 15 or higher, place 1 wound on the defending figure's card.

Now you are rolling for the chance to poison someone much more frequently, making it have a larger game impact, and high defense figures have a reason to fear her which would help put her in a higher point bracket. I upped the roll to 15+ due to the more frequent d20 rolling (although this can be adjusted during testing), dropped the multiple rolls per use aspect to cut down on it's swinginess (better to quantify dealing a flat 1W per d20 roll), and limited it to Unique Heroes since it seems unlikely for her to waste her poison on inferior common squad/hero foes.

Ruthless Seduction - From a theme stand point, I think the theme plays better here if she is able to seduce a figure that she has been engaged with for more than 1 second. The idea of an instantaneous seduction takes place when she first encounters someone seems a little off to me. Seducing someone generally takes a little bit of effort. From a game play stand point, I think this could work out much better for her if it didn't matter who initiated contact considering she only has a melee attack. So this is what I would go for here.

RUTHLESS SEDUCTION
If an opponent's figure starts it's turn adjacent to Cheshire and she is not engaged to any other figures, you may roll the 20-sided die. Subtract 5 from your roll if that figure has the Valiant personality. If you roll 15 or higher, that figure receives one wound and its turn immediately ends.

Now it does not matter if Cheshire engages first and you will be rolling to see if she has managed to seduce someone she is engaged with much more frequently. I raised the number rolled to 15 as well to match the 15 needed above as well as to accommodate the increase in use. Another figure trying to take her down is much more likely to lose a turn and take an auto-wound now, making the power much more interesting & effective than before. If it proves too strong I could see making it an either or proposition, either take 1W or lose a turn but not both.

RUTHLESS SEDUCTION
If an opponent's figure starts it's turn adjacent to Cheshire and she is not engaged to any other figures, you may roll the 20-sided die. Subtract 5 from your roll if that figure has the Valiant personality. If you roll 15 or higher, you may choose to have that figure receive one wound or have its turn immediately end.

With those two small changes to the how the power set plays I think we would find her closer to that 160-180 range you were initially looking for without having to change any of her stats, give her a ranged attack, or changing her defensive power. If you still wanted to bump her defense up to 5 even with those changes, I would not be opposed to it I would just start her testing up at 180 rather than starting at 160 as more defense would give her two updated powers even more chances to kick in.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I think that Karat did a pretty good job of answering your question. And YK seems to have a VERY good grasp on the character and how the elements of her character should actually interact. I really like YK's thinking on the poison and how it should interact and the power he subsequently came up with. Also, his argument about seduction seems spot on. Both seem like good suggestions, very thematic.

[Viegon]

I'd be fine with those changes if japes supports them.

As to Army Tests, she's the kind of figure you're going to get the most use out of by not putting OMs on her card. Ruthless Seduction and Deadly Poisons can both be used passively to disrupt and wound your opponent, meaning she's going to play really well when moved around by figures like Martian Manhunter (I) or Robot, and stacked with other passive figures (Jocasta, Angel (Liam), Bizarro, Diablo, Spider-Girl, other figures with Engagement Strike type powers, etc.). When run in such armies that include bigger targets, it forces your opponent to either waste time taking her down while they get hit by your main force, or leave her for later but deal with wounds from Ruthless Seduction and Deadly Poisons. Either way, you gain from it, and without ever having to spend an OM on her.

Hero Tests, on the other hand, can't showcase her potential as a passive figure, instead focusing solely on her as an offensive figure, which is where you're likely to get less value out of her.

My .

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by Viegon

As to Army Tests, she's the kind of figure you're going to get the most use out of by not putting OMs on her card. Ruthless Seduction and Deadly Poisons can both be used passively to disrupt and wound your opponent, meaning she's going to play really well when moved around by figures like Martian Manhunter (I) or Robot, and stacked with other passive figures (Jocasta, Angel (Liam), Bizarro, Diablo, Spider-Girl, other figures with Engagement Strike type powers, etc.). When run in such armies that include bigger targets, it forces your opponent to either waste time taking her down while they get hit by your main force, or leave her for later but deal with wounds from Ruthless Seduction and Deadly Poisons. Either way, you gain from it, and without ever having to spend an OM on her.

Hero Tests, on the other hand, can't showcase her potential as a passive figure, instead focusing solely on her as an offensive figure, which is where you're likely to get less value out of her.

I'm not necessarily saying she will be worth more than 130 in full army tests, but I think they'll be a better indicator of her value. That's what I was trying to get at before.

If she still comes in low, I'm fine with her cost coming down if the LD is, or with changes being made to bump her up. Not sure I'm on board with adding yet another turn prevention unit though to go on top of Spider-Girl, Diablo, Sandman, Star Sapphire, etc.