Race for the presidency political discussion thread

[Raudulfr Shieldcrusher]

Originally Posted by Snotwalker 8000

I applaud California for exercising their constitutional democratic vote in this manner... no matter what we may or may not agree with about Prop 8, it's far better for a constitutional vote of the people to decide the issue than one activist judge legislating from the bench. Agreed?

Yes. Judges shouldn't decide on matters as big as this. I'm sad it didn't pass as well. But the people decided and we have to stand by that decision.

[InfinityMax]

I'm still not sure on the civil liberties and whatnot - me, I'm a pretty on-the-ball kind of guy and I really didn't see any real difference between pre-Patriot and post-Patriot act.

I understand the hooplah, but really, was anyone you know (or yourself) affected by these 'civil liberties violations'?

First, yes - everyone who got on a plane was affected. I flew, and my wife flew, and my kids flew, so we were affected. My wife flew more, and was subjected numerous times to unreasonable searches and unacceptable humiliation without recourse.

Second, just because you are not the one being tortured does not mean you should not oppose it. Just because I didn't personally have my conversations recorded (as far as I know) does not mean I don't oppose the practice. I'm not black, but I believe in civil rights. I'm not female, but I believe women should be allowed to vote. And I'm not an 'enemy combatant', but I think storing people in a prison for five years and not telling them what we think they did is wrong, even if I don't actually know anyone in Guantanamo Bay.

The differences may not have touched our lives profoundly, but we should have been dismayed anyway. After all, nothing Saddam did affected us, but we still justify that war by saying we were righting his wrongs. And just to break off a Godwin's, there were lots of Germans who weren't affected by the Holocaust.

[Bannister]

Originally Posted by V

Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there?

Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen?

Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War, terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense.

Fear got the best of you, and in your panic you turned to the now high chancellor, Adam Sutler. He promised you order, he promised you peace, and all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent

I like this quote better.

Bannister

[Gulp]

I'd much rather lose faith in my country occasionally and regain it than have an unshakable faith that borders on nationalism that some of the people criticizing me seem to be demonstrating. And I don't consider saying, "America is the greatest country in the world!" to be patriotic or very informed.

The idea that we should all have an equal level of pride in our country is pretty stupid. It cheapens this country, just as it would have cheapened this sentence if I had written "great country" just for the sake of sounding patriotic. I do believe it is a great nation. Greatest in the world? It's one of the greatest definitely, but I'd have to do some research and travel more before I could give an honest, fact-based answer.

This country will be better off when people stop treating it like a child with special needs. I want MY country to be the best it can be, and I will whine and kick and scream until everyone has everything they need.

What are you even saying when you say "this country"? The people, the system of government, the culture, the dirt? I have nothing bad to say about the dirt.

[holylink718]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

The word "restores" implies that he had faith, lost it, and now it's restored...

When he got his way.

[SuperflyTNT]

Well, Gulp, I'm sad to hear that you do not have a profound admiration for the culture, government SYSTEM (not necessarily the government elected to office), and our tradition of excellence.

See, it doesn't take a lot of research or travel to figure this one out - we ARE better than any other country: the evidence is the people around you of all colors, beliefs, ethnicities, countries of origin and/or nationalities, political leanings, religions et cetera. The fact is that nowhere else on earth to people flee to in times of trouble and be WELCOMED with open arms by the people. Nowhere else have so many religions, cultures, and belief systems come together in harmony, without civil war.

The land of opportunity where anyone can be anything they wish to be provided they follow the rules, work hard, and treat others as they wish to be treated. That's America.

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by holylink718

When he got his way.

You act like that's not how it's supposed to work.

The entire process restored part of my faith, and seeing Obama win in a clear mandate filled in large parts of the rest. When we finally shake off the shackles that keep us locked in an antiquated mode of thinking, that will fill another spot. And I hope I never gain my faith completely because that would probably mean that I've stopped wanting the country to be better.

[gamjuven]

Now we must ask: What will Obama do for Heroscape? I did not get a good answer during the campaign. I guess we'll see where his loyalites lie...

[Snotwalker 8000]

Originally Posted by gamjuven

Now we must ask: What will Obama do for Heroscape? I did not get a good answer during the campaign. I guess we'll see where his loyalites lie...

Hey, Obama's made himself out to be whatever you want him to be... he's a messianic blank check.

I, myself, believe he'll not only be our "redistribution of wealth" sugar-daddy, he'll also ensure that every American --- oh, what the heck --- every World Citizen will be entitled to free heroscape figures, including promo figs, which he'll take from those who have the larger collections to redistribute to those who don't.

After all, it's selfish to think you're entitled to keep the Heroscape figures you've worked for...

SW8K

[SuperflyTNT]

The entire process restored part of my faith, and seeing Obama win in a clear mandate filled in large parts of the rest. When we finally shake off the shackles that keep us locked in an antiquated mode of thinking, that will fill another spot. And I hope I never gain my faith completely because that would probably mean that I've stopped wanting the country to be better.

That's ridiculous...Americans' faith should be unshakeable that we ARE capable of being better with every single day! Every day Americans do something to better the world: develop cleaner energies, invent things that help all mankind, develop medicines that cure diseases that have plagued people for centuries...this is not news unless you're LOOKING to have something to dislike America for. The fact is that we do FAR more good than we've ever done harm, and anyone can see that if they simply take off the shroud of anger and spite and see the world for what it is, not what they want it to be to justify their own self-loathing.

The proof is there - we've rescued Europe twice, rebuilt it once, created and funded both the League of Nations and the UN so that all parties have a forum to deal with greivances, we give more money in foreign aid than most all of the other countries combined, we have one of the largest economies in the world, have some of the lowest tax rates of any industrialized country, and DESPITE the BS that you see we have arguably the highest standard of living in the world. We champion human rights worldwide, speak for those who cannot speak and fight for those too weak to defend themselves.

I just hate to see people think that we're some force for evil in the world, or in some way a nation to be maligned - people like that disgust me with their sheer ignorance of clear fact. We're certainly not perfect but we TRY to be every single day.

I'm voting we lock this thread before I get all pissed off and get neg-repped to a redcard for saying some truly awful stuff....

[skyknight]

I have been to many places in the world and for those of us who think this country is not a bright light I would beg to differ. Just because one party or the other leads is somewhat irrelevant and does not diminish the fact that we as a society, while we have our problems mind you, are very close to a modern day Camelot. Far to many people take this country for granted and are willing to turn on it at the drop of a hat if their agenda is not the one being followed.

We as Americans tend to be good people all in all...Conservatives, Democrats, and the tweeners as well. I stand today just as proud of my country as I did yesterday when we were not sure who our enemies are. Perhaps things will get better, more peacful, and cleaner under Obama...for my children's sake I hope so.

But to President Bush I say thank you, not one nutjob with a single firecracker has been able to bring harm directly to this country since 9-11. Disagree with the President all you like but understand his goals are the same as yours and mine...and that is that we remain strong in a turbulent world. I am sure Obama has the same goals just a different approach.

As far as civil liberties...if we see a direct assault on freedom of speech under the guise of a Fairness doctrine I will be passing a petition to all of you to make sure we get enough signatures to stop it from happening.

One last question...since it is ok for me to say I am finally proud...is it also ok for me to claim how utterly ashamed I am in my country for putting a man like Obama in place? I think many would take issue with this and for good reason...it shows a severe lack of credibility when your agenda is the only one you are willing to swallow and your loyalties can be bought simply with a few campaign promises from a a canidate. If national pride is only available to you when things go your way then I think you have missed the entire point of an American nation.

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Well, Gulp, I'm sad to hear that you do not have a profound admiration for the culture, government SYSTEM (not necessarily the government elected to office), and our tradition of excellence.

See, it doesn't take a lot of research or travel to figure this one out - we ARE better than any other country: the evidence is the people around you of all colors, beliefs, ethnicities, countries of origin and/or nationalities, political leanings, religions et cetera. The fact is that nowhere else on earth to people flee to in times of trouble and be WELCOMED with open arms by the people. Nowhere else have so many religions, cultures, and belief systems come together in harmony, without civil war.

The land of opportunity where anyone can be anything they wish to be provided they follow the rules, work hard, and treat others as they wish to be treated. That's America.

You do realize that Europe, Canada and a bunch of other nations exist, right? They're much more open to differing religious opinions that the US. Not all the people who fled Iraq came to the US.

Democracy doesn't just exist in the United States. We didn't invent it. We just popularized it and made it better.

Just because I wish our political system was better and that our culture was smarter and more apt to appreciate intellectual curiosity, that doesn't mean that I think I'd prefer to live in Iran.

If someone doesn't believe in the electoral college, if they think that elections should be publicly funded, and if they think that we should have more than two choices for president, I have to assume from your post that you feel sad for that person because they just don't see how profoundly amazing this nation is.