The Book of The Crow

[Tornado]

@Lord Pyre

Worth a shout out. Could use the help if you are out there LP.

[Lazy Orang]

I tried that earlier, Tornado - didn't work.

It's highly unorthodox, but I may be able to do a test sheet of three tests for this guy, one test for the present official version, one for dok's idea (if he posts it in a proper format), and one for my idea (which I can post in a proper format some time soon if you would like).
It won't be as in depth as two tests, but it should give an idea of each version, on how thematic/strong/frustrating they are in game.
I can do this before or after testing Songbird, depending on what would be more helpful - I hope to be able to test both.

[Tornado]

Mine is an ancient call heard by all Lords.

That would be great L_O. Thank you.

This one is making me all sorts of anxious as I do not want to fiddle with it too much but all my ideas are pretty much overhauls.

So wish I could have been part of the original LD.

[johnny139]

So I more or less like the direction we're going with here.

- I like the idea of multiple Crow Markers - let's say three? - since he's almost slasher-like in his "mow through everyone who wronged him" sensibility. With that, it makes sense to drop the "earns new vengeance throughout the game" bit. I'd limit it to Unique cards... he shouldn't be swearing vengeance on the abstract concept of "Street Thugs" or on cosmic forces but specific entities. If we went with the movie version, he'd put a marker on a Unique Squad of the three thugs, a Unique Hero of their leader, and then a Unique Hero of the crime lord guy. Not 100% accurate but close enough.
- I'd like to keep the -1 Defense, but limited to Crow's attacks. Or push it further to strongly incentivize attacking his victims. He should be gunning for the top dudes and only attacking the mooks if necessary...
- That being said, maybe punish him for attacking the non-Crow figures "if possible?" Not sure how we would do that... but, like, "If it is possible to attack a figure with a Crow Marker, if the Crow does not, he rolls 2 fewer attack dice." Like, again, in terms of the movie - if Weird Long Hair Guy throws a bunch of mooks in his way, Crow isn't any weaker. He'll blow through them. But if he has an equal choice between gunning for Weird Long Hair Guy and a bunch of mooks, he would never choose to go after the mooks. The player should feel the same way.
- I'd be fine with him dying immediately if there's no more victims, but I think in practical terms having decay wounds would be better, to make sure the player controlling the Crow doesn't avoid "finishing the job."

I think the original design, in theory, is a fine card. But in practice it doesn't work the way it should. You CAN play it the way the character works, but you're not given the proper carrot/stick to do so. So that's the biggest thing to focus on.

I'm never comfortable overhauling a card so much on reevaluation but I think we'll need to anyways for balance. While we're here we may as well fix the rest of the package up.

[quozl]

I emailed LP to see if he has time to weigh in.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by johnny139

- I'd like to keep the -1 Defense, but limited to Crow's attacks. Or push it further to strongly incentivize attacking his victims. He should be gunning for the top dudes and only attacking the mooks if necessary...
- That being said, maybe punish him for attacking the non-Crow figures "if possible?" Not sure how we would do that... but, like, "If it is possible to attack a figure with a Crow Marker, if the Crow does not, he rolls 2 fewer attack dice." Like, again, in terms of the movie - if Weird Long Hair Guy throws a bunch of mooks in his way, Crow isn't any weaker. He'll blow through them. But if he has an equal choice between gunning for Weird Long Hair Guy and a bunch of mooks, he would never choose to go after the mooks. The player should feel the same way.

That's why I like the idea of dropping his attack to 3 and boosting his bonus against the target. That way, the player can have him gun through mooks to get to his target, but is given a strong incentive to go after the target, as that's how he'll be inflicting the most damage per OM by a long shot. Simple, no actual restrictions, nothing fancy, just a real reason to pick someone and go after them like an assassin.

Originally Posted by johnny139

- I like the idea of multiple Crow Markers - let's say three? - since he's almost slasher-like in his "mow through everyone who wronged him" sensibility. With that, it makes sense to drop the "earns new vengeance throughout the game" bit. I'd limit it to Unique cards... he shouldn't be swearing vengeance on the abstract concept of "Street Thugs" or on cosmic forces but specific entities. If we went with the movie version, he'd put a marker on a Unique Squad of the three thugs, a Unique Hero of their leader, and then a Unique Hero of the crime lord guy. Not 100% accurate but close enough.

Definitely up for that - I'm cool with a Unique restriction, as long as it isn't a Unique Hero restriction. Based on the guys he went after, I really want to be able to go after the Hired Guns. Three would be fine with me, though I have concerns about that number being too strong - two would work fine, I think, and as I said, Hired Guns + Crime Lord = murderous gang + Top Dollar.

Originally Posted by johnny139

- I'd be fine with him dying immediately if there's no more victims, but I think in practical terms having decay wounds would be better, to make sure the player controlling the Crow doesn't avoid "finishing the job."

Not sure how you'd work that, but I'd like to hear what you were thinking.

Honestly, this is what I'm thinking for this guy right now:


NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN

SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = 190?

SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
At the start of the game, choose up to two opponent's Unique Army Cards that are not The Crow and place a black Crow Marker on the chosen figures' cards.If all figures with your Crow Marker on their card are removed from the battlefield, your opponent loses control of those figures or are destroyed at the end of any round, destroy the Crow.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
Any figure with one of your Crow Markers on its card rolls 2 fewer defence dice when defending against the Crow. Whenever the Crow would receive one or more wounds, ignore one of those wounds.

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.


Should be thematic on the card and to play, and actually surprisingly simple.

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Not sure how you'd work that, but I'd like to hear what you were thinking.

I mean just a "after taking a turn with the Crow, if no opponents' figures have a Crow Marker on them, place a wound marker on this card."

Like, if my last remaining Crow Figure is down a single wound, and I take a turn with the Crow, I might say "huh, if I kill him, I lose a figure; better attack some mooks instead and let one of my other figures finish him off later." With the wounds, you get to keep the Crow, he'll just start his walk toward the grave if you take too many more turns.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by johnny139

I mean just a "after taking a turn with the Crow, if no opponents' figures have a Crow Marker on them, place a wound marker on this card."

Like, if my last remaining Crow Figure is down a single wound, and I take a turn with the Crow, I might say "huh, if I kill him, I lose a figure; better attack some mooks instead and let one of my other figures finish him off later." With the wounds, you get to keep the Crow, he'll just start his walk toward the grave if you take too many more turns.

Ooh, I like that! Same theme, less punishing. I also think killing Crow at the end of the round could work as well, but either way, I think would really work.
Do you think the above draft would work okay?

[johnny139]

Again, I feel like three would be the sweet spot for marker numbers, but overall I feel like that draft hits the right spots thematically and should make him a lot less obnoxious to play against. But I'm not expert.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Again, I feel like three would be the sweet spot for marker numbers, but overall I feel like that draft hits the right spots thematically and should make him a lot less obnoxious to play against. But I'm not expert.

I'm cool with 3 too - honestly whatever is most balanced on that one, I just have concerns about 3 being OP. I'm just glad we're homing in on something that will actually work.

[laughing matter]

I was personally thinking of something like this

NAME = THE CROW
SECRET IDENTITY = ERIC DRAVEN

SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = REVENANT
PERSONALITY = VENGEFUL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 4

POINTS = ???

SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
The Crow does not start the game on the battlefield. Whenever any other figure you control is destroyed by an opponent’s figure that is not The Crow, you may place the Crow Marker on the attacking Hero's Army Card, remove all Wound Markers from this card, and place The Crow in your start zone. The Crow may not attack any figure without your Crow Marker on its card. If the figure with your Crow Marker on its card is removed from the battlefield, place your Crow Marker on this card, and remove The Crow from the battlefield.

LIVE FOR VENGEANCE
Any figure with one of your Crow Markers on its card rolls 1 fewer defense dice when defending against the Crow. Whenever the Crow would receive two or more wounds from a figure without the Superstrength ability, he instead receives one wound. At the end of the round, if your Crow Marker is on another figure's card, The crow receives one wound.

DOUBLE ATTACK
When The Crow attacks, he may attack one additional time.


I tried to incorporate as many of the ideas tossed around as possible, while still keeping as close to the LD's intent as possible.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by laughing matter

SET THE WRONG THINGS RIGHT
The Crow does not start the game on the battlefield. Whenever any other figure you control is destroyed by an opponent’s figure that is not The Crow, you may place the Crow Marker on the attacking Hero's Army Card, remove all Wound Markers from this card, and place The Crow in your start zone. The Crow may not attack any figure without your Crow Marker on its card. If the figure with your Crow Marker on its card is removed from the battlefield, place your Crow Marker on this card, and remove The Crow from the battlefield.

The problem there is that it is still, IMO, a massive theme break - the Crow came back once - he never came back again - to avenge two people - him and his fiancee - who were killed a year ago. For him to keep popping back up whenever someone on your team dies, while a cool power idea, is not fitting the character.