The Book of Iron Patriot

[IAmBatman]

I'd prefer the last option there of any. Are we overreacting based on a single show of dominance, though? Did you try this combo in your tests?

[johnny139]

I did, but against a Mutant build. I'm picturing Iron Patriot and Red Skull against a squad-based army and easily getting four, five, six turns and over a dozen attacks of 4+ dice.

I feel it's a rare but excessive exploit.

[IAmBatman]

True, but there are other figures that can clean through weak squaddies with multiple activations, so it's not completely unprecedented. If it's regularly happening against mid-level heroes, I'm much more concerned than if they guys can just own Civilians and HYDRA Agents.

[johnny139]

Personally, I'd prefer we close the loop, simply because there is the ability to get infinite turns - and that's something we should avoid. I'll leave it on the table for the moment; if we decide we're okay with that I'll just run another test or two personally to see if it feels balanced.

Another playtest:

Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (Iron Patriot)

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
Pass

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass, though those OMs might get a bit confusing

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass, although even a double 5 attack from five range with the MM gets pretty powerful

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Pass, though MM can get very good at times

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass, super cool

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass, nice strategy ideas

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass, Definitly worth it in a hero heavy army

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Very difficult to decide on where those OMs go , but it makes it more interesting.

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes
- What should be the unit's point value? 290 feels right
- Give a brief overview. .With the extra X, he can get really dangerous, all those movement options really open up a lot of streategies. My only concern is if he were played with an initiative boost (Heimdall is my main concern) It would make him way more effective.
Map: Road Rampage
Units: Iron Patriot, Deadpool, Wolverine, MODOK, Loki (vs) Darkseid, Gorilla Grodd, Sinestro, Metallo, Black Adam.

Spoiler Alert!

So the battle opened with Iron Patriot moving to height with his team after winning initiative. Black Adam moves in to confront them. Iron Patriot loses initiative, but several of the OMs were on him so it didn't cause too much damage. Black Adam is able to unleash a serious pounding on Loki but Patriot flys to height and deals 2 wounds, activating Loki who deals another. Black Adam rips Loki apart w/ a 6 skull attack, but Patriot is again able to damage him, this time using Wolvy to deal another wound. Adam deals 4/5 wounds too Patriot and 5/6 wounds to Wolvy before finally succumbing. MODOK then flys in and is able to deal 3 damage to all units on the opponent's team through DofK. Patriot moves in with Wolvy and DP and is able to take down Darkseid, Metallo and Grodd without taking any wounds (which would have killed him) Siestro makes a comeback and unleashes a FoF which kills Norman and then a double FoF to kill Wolvy, he is even able to bring Deadpool down to 1 life left, but w/o and batteries left, he's dead in the water.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Deadpool w/ 1 life left (2 if you count the heal at the end of his turn.)

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? .
- What should be the unit's point value? Again, 290 seems right
- Give a brief overview. Felt the same here, his power was a mixed blessing, and the incentive to keep him in the game makes you want to be careful, but at the same time, reckless with him
Map: Road Rampage
Units: Scorpian, Absorbing Man, Red Hulk, Iron Patriot, Venom,(Dark Avengers... sort of) (vs) Iron Man, Dr Strange, Wonder Man, Giant Man, Hawkeye (real Avengers)

Spoiler Alert!

Scorpion and Patriot move to height and are engaged by Iron Man and Wonder Man. Patriot damages Iron Man and brings in Venom, who fails an attack on WM, who destroys Scorpion in one hit. Iron Man deals another 2 wounds to venom. Patriot deals a wound to WM and activates Venom, who does two wounds to Iron Man w/ slashing tendrils. Wonder Man gets a massive attack and Venom again fails to dodge, he goes down. Patriot finishes off Iron Man and brings in Red Hulk to fight WM. Wounds are exchanged, but WM then switches his attention to Iron Patriot and brings him down, but that gives Red Hulk the time needed to take Wonder Man down as well. Absorbing Man absorbs Red Hulk and engages Vision who had just dealt him a wound. He deals two wounds to him, but Physical Disruption ruins his Absorb by dealing him 2 wounds. He hits the roll again on Vision and deals 4 more wounds. He then finishes him off, but not before he takes another wound. Red Hulk engages Hawkeye and kills him, but it takes a long enough time for Dr Strange to move up and deal 5 more wounds on Hulk. Rulk deals 1 wound but then Giant Man swats him down. Strange easily takes down Absorbing man, but is taken down by Bullseye, who is decimated by Giant Man.
Who won and how many wounds did they have? Giant Man w/ 3 life left

He feels good, but Chaotic leadership is more of a hinderance than a blessing, I'd like to see it get more incentive to work.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Personally, I'd prefer we close the loop, simply because there is the ability to get infinite turns - and that's something we should avoid.

I agree with you. Any other card with Master Motivator increases the chances of it too. I think Chief's suggestion is the best.

[Hahma]

I don't have a problem with the change. It wouldn't affect anything Red Skull could currently do anyway, though making changes to cards does kind of suck. While a string of attacks against squaddies isn't terrible, if they ring off like 6 kills in a row to take out all Thugs/Hydra (and their OMs) or whatever that offers bonding, that would really suck. It's one thing to get a string of attacks based on d20 rolls, but those rolls aren't easier to roll vs. a 1 defense unit than a 8 defense unit. Wounding a figure has too many variables that offer more swing that we may not like.

I would suggest that in the future, we'd be better off thinking extra hard about powers that give extra attacks or turns to other figures. It wasn't hard earlier on, but now with so many units and synergies, some powers should be chosen more cautiously.

[IAmBatman]

Well this one is only a problem if we reuse it.

[quozl]

It's a good power and should be reused.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by quozl

It's a good power and should be reused.

Mutant Mind Link is a good power, but I wouldn't want us to reuse it.

Anyway, I'm fine with it being reused here. What's the proposed tweak? I'd love to see it written up for scrutiny.

[johnny139]

This version is pretty much straight mechanical and wouldn't change Red Skull at all:

MASTER MOTIVATOR
After taking a turn with Iron Patriot, if he inflicted one or more wounds with his normal attack this turn, you may take an immediate turn with any Unique Hero you control within clear sight of Iron Patriot without the Master Motivator special power.

This version is more thematic but a bigger change and sort of funny:

MASTER MOTIVATOR
After taking a turn with Iron Patriot, if he inflicted one or more wounds with his normal attack this turn, you may take an immediate turn with any Unique Hero you control within clear sight of Iron Patriot that is not a Leader.

I feel like we should probably go with the first one.

[quozl]

Agreed.

[johnny139]

Oh, and Part 2 of ibechief's test:

Originally Posted by ibechief

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT (Iron Patriot)

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
Pass.

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass.

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass.

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass.

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Pass.

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass.

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass.

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass.

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass.

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Pass.
----------------------------------------------

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes.
- What should be the unit's point value? 290.
- Give a brief overview. Posing as Tony Stark, Iron Patriot enlists the aid of the cosmic Silver Surfer and his friend and ally the Invisible Woman. They battle Spider-Man and his arch nemesis Venom, alongside Daredevil, and led by Captain America.
Map: Road Rampage.
Units: Iron Patriot, Silver Surfer (Norrin Radd), and Invisible Woman (905) vs Captain America (Steve Rogers), Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Venom (Eddie Brock), and Daredevil (900).
Glyphs: Glyph of Shield Belt, Glyph of Super Speed.

Spoiler Alert!

Round 1: Initiative- Test team Loss.
Chaotic Leadership-Initiative loss. 1 Order Marker moved from Surfer to Woman.
Turn 1: Captain moves 4 spaces to close. Cap attacks Evergreen Tree 3 skulls vs 4 shields for 0 wounds on Evergreen Tree. Evergreen Tree had height advantage.
Iron Patriot moves 6 spaces and attacks Short Ruin 4 skulls vs 2 shields for 2 wounds on Short Ruin. Iron Patriot had height advantage. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 11 spaces and attacks Evergreen Tree 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Evergreen Tree. Surfer had height advantage. Cosmic Speed moves Surfer back 2 spaces.
Turn 2: Daredevil moves 9 spaces to close. Daredevil attacks Evergreen Tree 4 skulls vs 5 shields for 0 wounds on Evergreen Tree. Daredevil had height advantage.
Woman moves 7 spaces to close.
Turn 3: Venom Tendril Swing's 6 spaces to close. Venom attacks Evergreen Tree 2 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Evergreen Tree. Evergreen Tree dies. Venom had height advantage. No wounds inflicted.
Iron Patriot moves 3 spaces to within range of Venom. Iron Patriot attacks Venom 2 skulls vs 2 shields for 0 wounds on Venom. 2nd attack on Venom 2 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Venom. Master Motivator -> Surfer attacks Venom 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Venom.
End of round with 1 wound on Venom, 1 Evergreen Tree destroyed, and 2 wounds on Short Ruin.
Round 2: Initiative- Test team won.
Chaotic Leadership-Initiative win. No movement.
Turn 1: Iron Patriot attacks Venom 2 skulls vs Symbiotic Sense 13 success. Venom Tendril Swings 6 spaces to engage Woman. 2nd attack on Venom 2 skulls vs Symbiotic Sense 13 success. Venom Tendril Swings 1 space to remain adjacent with Woman.
Captain moves 6 spaces and uses Shield Throw S/A on Surfer 3 skulls vs 5 shields for 0 wounds on Surfer. vs Iron Patriot 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Iron Patriot.
Turn 2: Iron Patriot attacks Venom 5 skulls vs 2 shields for 3 wounds on Venom. Master Motivator -> Surfer attacks Captain w/The Power Cosmic (removed 1 unrevealed Order Marker) 5 skulls vs 3 shields for 2 wounds on Captain.
Venom attacks Woman 5 skulls vs 0 shields for 5 wounds on Woman. Woman had height. Woman dies.
Turn 3: Iron Patriot moves 5 spaces to reveal unknown glyph. Glyph of Shield Belt. Iron Patriot equips Glyph of Shield Belt. Iron Patriot attacks Evergreen Tree 3 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Evergreen Tree. Evergreen Tree dies. 1 wound inflicted on Venom. Venom dies. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 8 spaces to reveal unknown Glyph of Super Speed. Surfer attacks Captain 3 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Captain. Cosmic Speed moves 2 spaces.
Spider-Man Web Swings 6 spaces. Spider-Man attacks Surfer 2 skulls vs 4 shields for 0 wounds on Surfer.
End of round with Invisible Woman Dead, 1 Evergreen Tree Destroyed, 2 wounds on Captain America, and Venom Dead.
Chaotic Leadership-Initiative loss. No Order Markers can be moved.
Round 3: Initiative Test team loss.
Turn 1: Spider-Man uses Web Slinger on Surfer to move him adjacent and to lower height. Spider-Man attacks Surfer 2 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Surfer. Spider-Man had height advantage.
Iron Patriot moves 4 spaces and attacks Captain 4 skulls vs 3 shields for 1 wound on Captain. 2nd attack on Captain 1 skull vs 5 shields for 0 wounds on Captain. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 7 spaces to range. Surfer attacks Captain w/The Power Cosmic (1 Order Marker removed) 3 skulls vs 2 shields for 1 wound on Captain.
Turn 2: Captain America moves 5 spaces and attacks Iron Patriot 4 skulls vs (Glyph of Shield Belt destroyed) 3 shields for 1 wound on Iron Patriot.
Iron Patriot attacks Captain 0 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Captain. 2nd attack 2 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Captain.
Turn 3: Spider-Man Web Swings 4 spaces and attacks Iron Patriot 2 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Iron Patriot.
Iron Patriot attacks Captain 4 skulls vs 2 shields for 2 wounds on Captain. Captain dies. 2nd attack on Spider-Man 3 skulls vs Spidey Sense 9 success. Spider-Man Web Swings 1 space. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 1 space and attacks Daredevil 5 skulls vs Radar Sense 12 success -> Daredevil is placed 3 spaces closer. For 0 wounds on Daredevil. Cosmic Speed moves Surfer 1 space.
End of round with Captain America dead, 2 wounds on Iron Patriot, and 1 wound on Silver Surfer.

Round 4: Initiative-Test team won.
Chaotic Leadership- Initiative won. Silver Surfer moved 2 spaces to range from Daredevil.
Turn 1: Iron Patriot moves 8 spaces to return to start zone and attacks Short Ruin 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Short Ruin. 2nd attack on Short Ruin 2 skulls vs 1 shield for 1 wound on Short Ruin. Short Ruin dies. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 1 space to engage Daredevil. Surfer attacks Daredevil 3 skulls vs Radar Sense 12 success -> Daredevil is placed 3 spaces to close on Iron Patriot, for 0 wounds on Daredevil. Cosmic Speed moves Surfer 2 spaces.
Spider-Man uses Web Slinger on Silver Surfer to move him to over bridge's railing but still adjacent. Spider-Man attacks Surfer 3 skulls vs The Power Cosmic (2 order Markers removed) 2 shields for 1 wound on Silver Surfer. Spider-Man had height advantage.
Turn 2: Iron Patriot moves 3 spaces to within range of Evergreen Tree. Iron Patriot attacks Evergreen Tree 0 skulls vs 4 shields for 0 wounds on Evergreen Tree. 2nd attack on Evergreen Tree 1 skull vs 0 shields for 1 wound on Evergreen Tree. Evergreen Tree had height advantage. Evergreen Tree dies. 1 wound inflicted to Daredevil. Master Motivator -> Silver Surfer moves 6 spaces to engage Daredevil. Silver Surfer attacks Daredevil 3 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Daredevil.
Daredevil attacks Surfer 2 skulls vs 2 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Daredevil had height advantage.
Turn 3: Silver Surfer no longer has an Order Marker.
Daredevil attacks Silver Surfer 2 skulls vs 0 shields for 2 wounds on Silver Surfer. Daredevil had height advantage.
End of round with 1 wound on Daredevil, 1 Evergreen Tree Destroyed, and 3 wounds on Silver Surfer.
Round 5: Initiative- Test team loss.
Chaotic Leadership- Initiative loss. No Order Markers can be moved.
Turn 1: Daredevil attacks Silver Surfer 2 skulls vs The Power Cosmic ( 1 Order Marker removed) 1 shield for 1 wound on Silver Surfer. Daredevil has height advantage.
Iron Patriot moves 5 spaces to close on Daredevil. Iron Patriot attacks Daredevil 1 skull vs Radar Sense 12 success (Daredevil is placed 2 spaces away to engage Silver Surfer and Iron Patriot) for 0 wounds on Daredevil. Daredevil had height advantage. 2nd attack on Daredevil 2 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Daredevil. Daredevil had height advantage.
Turn 2: Daredevil attacks Iron Patriot 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Iron Patriot. Daredevil had height advantage. Daredevil attacks Silver Surfer 2 skulls vs The Power Cosmic (1 Order Marker removed) 2 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer had height advantage.
Iron Patriot moves 2 spaces and attacks Daredevil 3 skulls vs Radar Sense 12 success (Daredevil is placed 1 space away to gain height advantage) for 0 wounds on Daredevil. 2nd attack on Daredevil 3 skulls vs 1 shield for 2 wounds on Daredevil. Daredevil had height advantage. Master Motivator -> Surfer moves 5 spaces to range on Daredevil. Surfer attacks Daredevil 2 skulls vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Daredevil.
Turn 3: Spider-Man moves 2 spaces and attacks Iron Patriot 3 skulls vs 0 shields for 3 wounds on Iron Patriot. Spider-Man had height advantage. Iron Patriot dies.
Silver Surfer no longer has an Order Marker.
End of round with 2 wounds on Daredevil, 2 wounds on Silver Surfer, 1 Short Ruin was destroyed, and Iron Patriot dead.
Round 6: Initiative- Test team won.
Turn 1 : Silver Surfer moves 6 spaces to range. Silver Surfer attacks Daredevil 4 skulls vs 1 shield for 3 wounds on Daredevil. Silver Surfer had height advantage. Cosmic Speed moves Surfer 2 spaces to range.
Daredevil is dead.
Turn 2: Silver Surfer attacks 2 skulls vs Spidey Sense Success -> Spider-Man Web Swings 4 spaces to close. Cosmic Speed moves Surfer 2 spaces to engage Spider-Man.
Spider-Man attacks 3 skulls vs The Power Cosmic (1 Order Marker removed) 4 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer heals 1 wound w/ Energy Transmutation.
Turn 3: Silver Surfer moves 11 to range.
Spider-Man Web Swings 6 spaces to close.
End of round with Daredevil dead, and 1 wound healed on Silver Surfer.
Round 7: Initiative-Test team loss.
Turn 1: Spider-Man moves 1 space to higher ground and attacks Silver Surfer 3 skulls vs The Power Cosmic (2 Order Markers Removed) 3 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Spider-Man had height advantage.
Silver Surfer moves 8 spaces to height and attacks Spider-Man 4 skulls vs Spidey Sense 9 success -> Spider-Man Web Swings 2 spaces to close. Cosmic Speed moves Silver Surfer 2 spaces to engage Spider-Man. Silver Surfer had height advantage.
Turn 2: Spider-Man Attacks Silver Surfer 1 skull vs 3 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Silver Surfer Heals 1 wound w/ Energy Transmutation.
Silver Surfer moves 2 spaces to height and attacks Spider-Man 1 skull vs Spidey Sense 9 Success -> Spider-Man Web Swings 6 spaces to range. Silver Surfer had height advantage. Cosmic Speed moves Silver Surfer 2 spaces to engage Spider-Man.
Turn 3: Spider-Man Web Swings 2 spaces to height and attacks Silver Surfer 1 skull vs 2 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer. Spider-Man had height advantage. Silver Surfer heals 1 wound w/ Energy Transmutation.
Silver Surfer no longer has an Order Marker.
End of round with 2 wounds healed on Silver Surfer.
Round 8: Initiative- Test team loss.
Turn 1: Spider-Man Web Swings 4 spaces to range and attacks Silver Surfer 3 skulls vs The Power Cosmic (1 Order Marker removed) 3 shields for 0 wounds on Silver Surfer.
Silver Surfer moves 4 spaces to engage Spider-Man and attacks 5 skulls vs 0 shields for 5 wounds on Spider-Man. Silver Surfer had height advantage. Spider-Man dies.
End of round with Spider-Man dead.End of Game with Silver Surfer (2 wound Markers).

Spoiler Alert!

After the last test I choose to foil Iron Patriots Master Motivator another way. I placed him in an army with the New Surfer and Invisible Woman to test his longevity in a defensive army build, as well as to see how many motivator triggers I could net with an extremely mobile, passing swipe ignoring army as the opposition. Spider-Man, Venom, and Daredevil ran wild on Iron Patriot. He could rarely ever get a hit with his small 4 attack and the wounds were more rare still with the damn opposition using avoidance abilities left and right. Add to that some amazing positioning capabilities and this battle was nearly lost. Silver Surfer underperformed greatly at first only earning his point in the end with a few Heals. Invisible Woman went down like a brick as soon as the mobile Venom engaged her. Add to this test the cheerleading powers of Captain America and Iron Patriot had a massive run for his money.

I felt much better about this test. Avoiding the Bonding loop with dual Motivators kept Iron Patriots power levels in check and allowed me to see that he has strengths and weaknesses. His point value looks right on here. When faced with opponents that are highly mobile and can gain height on him his defense crumbles and his lack of boosted offense means no Motivator procs. This gives this design lots of potential when considering strategy.

All in all, fix the bonding issue and this is a very nice design!

Who won and how many wounds did they have? Silver Surfer with 2 wound markers.