Goliath

[fret_gurglo]

Originally Posted by Arch-vile

yea

It looks like a lot of the opposing teams were 1.0 teams - probably best to test with solely 2.0 at this stage in the game as we're often making changes with conversions, some minor changes, some more major changes. Additionally I'm not totally sure what all made up the opposing teams as there are quite a few Injustice and Bat-Family builds at 1100 and 900 respectively. I can piece together a bit of it but I'm not sure what Batman was used or if the Grodd used was 1.0 or 2.0 (because there is no Bizarro or Dr Light in 2.0 yet).

"Revenge of the Gargoyles" or "Manhattan Clan Revenge" or "Gargoyle's Revenge" for the last ability name? It's a very generic name for a very specific ability.

Also, with Manhattan Clan Leadership - right now I feel like you'd often want all OMs on Goliath since you can't trigger the move/attack actions with him. If you want to be able to give Goliath actions with the ability, changing "ally" to "you control" would let you spread OMs a bit more, thus making the Revenge ability's OM-save more impactful as a result. Just an idea.

I did test with 1.0 figures this time. Most of my other games have been 2.0, but my son wanted to do 1.0 for these games. I'll make sure to use 2.0 going forward.

I went with Manhattan Clan Revenge and updated the wording as you suggested.

And as for his leadership power. Yes if you do not have Brooklyn all OMs would be on Goliath. With Brooklyn, Brooklyn gives half actions so he can allow someone to move and then Goliath can allow that figure to attack or vice versa.

[fret_gurglo]

This passes. Can someone please move the thread to playtesting for me.

[japes]

I too would like to see more info on the test for the armies you used. Injustice League doesn't tell me enough to gauge what's going on for instance.

[Lord Pyre]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Goliath

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Gargoyles
Vs.
Spider-Verse: Otto, Takuya, Leopardon, Assassin, Man-Spider (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Recap: Spiders struggled this whole match. Otto needs to win initiative, and Lex is really good at adding it, so Otto’s wins weren’t consistent enough to be really good. The Spiders’ offense couldn’t crack the Gargoyles insane defense. With both Goliath and Hudson granting bonus move actions, Lex was fully charged the whole game. Broadway is a losing prospective to attack until the end, so they focused on Brooklyn and Goliath, until I realized that Lex was the real problem. At that point Lex always had 6 attack and was shrugging off the Spider attacks, and any scary looking rolls, Brooklyn burned the X to add 2 blocks. Eventually they focused fire on Hudson to at least kill the rerolls, slowing down their offense a tad. Man-Spider rolled a blank in almost every attack so he was nigh useless for being the second heavy hitter. Leopardon was just swarmed and chipped down, he focused on Arc Turns to just bypass defense, but he couldn’t hit more than a single one. His Sword Vigor is what finished Hudson. Eventually Assassin got his roll to finish Brooklyn, but Goliath charged with two dead Gargoyles walked up to Otto and absolutely wrecked him with a double attack of 8, then 7 dice. Assassin can’t keep up on his own.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Goliath with 4/7 wounds, Lex with 2/4 wounds, Broadway with 0 wounds (two meat markers left)

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Gargoyles
Vs.
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Atom (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Recap: ….

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): ....

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: ....

[Lord Pyre]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Goliath

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Gargoyles
Vs.
Spider-Verse: Otto, Takuya, Leopardon, Assassin, Man-Spider (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Recap: Spiders struggled this whole match. Otto needs to win initiative, and Lex is really good at adding it, so Otto’s wins weren’t consistent enough to be really good. The Spiders’ offense couldn’t crack the Gargoyles insane defense. With both Goliath and Hudson granting bonus move actions, Lex was fully charged the whole game. Broadway is a losing prospective to attack until the end, so they focused on Brooklyn and Goliath, until I realized that Lex was the real problem. At that point Lex always had 6 attack and was shrugging off the Spider attacks, and any scary looking rolls, Brooklyn burned the X to add 2 blocks. Eventually they focused fire on Hudson to at least kill the rerolls, slowing down their offense a tad. Man-Spider rolled a blank in almost every attack so he was nigh useless for being the second heavy hitter. Leopardon was just swarmed and chipped down, he focused on Arc Turns to just bypass defense, but he couldn’t hit more than a single one. His Sword Vigor is what finished Hudson. Eventually Assassin got his roll to finish Brooklyn, but Goliath charged with two dead Gargoyles walked up to Otto and absolutely wrecked him with a double attack of 8, then 7 dice. Assassin can’t keep up on his own.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Goliath with 4/7 wounds, Lex with 2/4 wounds, Broadway with 0 wounds (two meat markers left)

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Gargoyles
Vs.
Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Atom (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Recap: Seemed a bit closer this game. Superman and Wonder Woman focused HARD on Brooklyn, as he’s their main threat. They ended up finishing him in round two with the help of Batman’s auto wounds and Atom’s autowounds. Bats burned through his JL markers extremely quickly to make that happen. That really hurt the Gargoyle’s efficiency, but they were already all engaged at that point so Goliath’s bonding was still pretty solid. WIth Hudson recharging Lex at the beginning of every round, they lasted quite a long time. Eventually Goliath hit Superman really hard, leaving him with one life before Goliath fell (He didn’t use Brooklyn’s corpse for the double attack in this game). Hudson and Broadway traded OMs with Lex supporting, and even just that was fairly stout. But since Goliath is the only one with a big attack, it took a while for them to chip away at the JL. Eventually they outlasted them, with Batman taking out Hudson and putting up a big fight, but Lex boosting defense just made them too tough.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Broadway with 2/5 wounds (No markers left), Lex with 2/4 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: Two decent wins here. I feel like Goliath stacking more on top of Brooklyn feels slightly too strong. Potentially 4 attacks per OM, with Goliath’s attack being big (Or potentially 5 attacks in one turn, mostly of 8 attack power). Also with both Hudson and Goliath giving free bonus moves, Lex is basically always fully charged which makes their defense crazy good. Autowounds took out Brooklyn in my second game, but they still won. I feel like the Stealth, +1 attack, and both move+attack in Goliath’s leadership might be a bit much, also extraneous? Maybe just cutting the bonuses, and leave it as just OM1 move action, OM2 attack action, OM3 Move OR attack action? Might help a tad. Also Revenge is so strong I’d be tempted to cut the double attack aspect entirely, and then up the max to +3 or +4? Still scary, but the +attack power in addition to septuple attacking is nasty. At the very least I might cap it to just one attack rather than an unlimited chain.

But bottom line, I think he’s close. I do like him a lot, and I'm really enjoying playing this army. I think they were good without him, and he adds more of the same, in a way, so it turned the Good into really great. I do like that he’s a heavy hitter when the others aren’t, so I want to make sure to keep that, but cutting down a bit of the other stuff might be good.

[fret_gurglo]

Thanks LP. That second game seemed pretty close, but I'll think it over a bit. You say in your summary that Hudson was recharging Lex, can you elaborate on that? I don't understand what you mean.

[Lord Pyre]

Yeah, Hudson’s gargoyle charge gives 5 gargoyles maneuvers. Maneuvers are move actions so instead of maneuvering him I’m just rolling for his gadgets at the start of each round.

Yeah second game was pretty close, but both Brooklyn and Goliath were taken out pretty quick so they didn’t quite reach their full potential (but also, how often will they reach that potential? Just mentioning the data)

[fret_gurglo]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Yeah, Hudson’s gargoyle charge gives 5 gargoyles maneuvers. Maneuvers are move actions so instead of maneuvering him I’m just rolling for his gadgets at the start of each round.

Yeah second game was pretty close, but both Brooklyn and Goliath were taken out pretty quick so they didn’t quite reach their full potential (but also, how often will they reach that potential? Just mentioning the data)

That could be a big part of the problem...


SCAVENGING TINKERER
If Lexington is unengaged, instead of an attack action, you may roll 3 combat dice. For each skull, place 1 Scrap Marker on this card, to a max of 3. Lexington has +1 Defense for each Scrap Marker on this card.

[Lord Pyre]

lol, my brain what happened. Sorry. Doesn’t change goliaths help with him since he still grants attack actions at the same rate as moves, but that should tone down their defense a bit from what I just did

I’ve played him so much at this point not sure why I did it wrong this time

[Lord Pyre]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Goliath

Army Test
Map: Custom
Units: Gargoyles
Vs.
Spider-Verse: Otto, Takuya, Leopardon, Assassin, Man-Spider (1100)

Spoiler Alert!

Recap: Lex was a lot more frugal with his markers since I actually played it correctly, which meant the Spiders could actually deal some wounds. They immediately charged after Brooklyn, who is the other protector and main leader. They ended up taking him down pretty quick, but not after the multi turns did 6 wounds to Man-Spider and a couple on Leopardon. Goliath charged with Brooklyn’s corpse fought against Leopardon, and Otto and Assassin engaged Hudon, with Assassin taking out Hudson with his assassination roll. Leopardon and Man-Spider swarmed Lex to try to stop him from adding to defense, and were successful, but Goliath and Broadway took out Man-Spider shortly after. With Otto kind of close to the fight, having fought Hudson, Goliath charged right to Otto, and burned all his bodies, ending up with 4 attacks. Two 8-dice attacks on Otto wrecked him in this turn, then he threw two attacks at Leopardon but rolled poorly on those two. With the Spiders’ efficiency crippled, suddenly it looked really bad for them. The last Gargoyles finished Leopardon easy, but then Assassin hit a 4 skull attack roll on Goliath, wounding him, then finishing him with another assassination roll. Broadway took out Takuya easily, staying healed via his markers. With 1 wound on his card, Broadway didn’t use another marker, but Assassin rolled another hot attack on him, dealing 3 wounds, and getting yet another assassination roll for the win.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Assassin with 0 wounds.

___________________________________________________________

[Lord Pyre]

There, reran my Spider game. They're definitely not as strong as I thought they were without Lex constantly backing them up. I still think there should be some sort of cap on the Revenge, as that quadruple attack of 8-8-7-6 was gross. He's blowing through nearly any figure in the game with that potential. But I'm not too worried about the other stuff. I don't think the Stealth and +1 attack bonus are NEEDED, but they're not pushing him to far over or anything.

[fret_gurglo]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

There, reran my Spider game. They're definitely not as strong as I thought they were without Lex constantly backing them up. I still think there should be some sort of cap on the Revenge, as that quadruple attack of 8-8-7-6 was gross. He's blowing through nearly any figure in the game with that potential. But I'm not too worried about the other stuff. I don't think the Stealth and +1 attack bonus are NEEDED, but they're not pushing him to far over or anything.

Cool, thanks. That test looks pretty even to me. Things are looking better for balance in the gargoyles. I might limit it to only one additional attack. Just curious, was any of those attacks high ground? From even ground, it should go 8 (with 2 figures on his card) then toss a body for an attack 7, then 6 and so on.