HoME General Discussion Thread

[White Knight]

When I looked at the list of Tolkien figures a while ago, I tended to put Sauron as Utgar and Morgoth as Valkrill.

Sauron/Utgar
Nazgul
Orcs of Moria
Haradrim
Corsairs of Umbar
Easterlings
Trolls
Wargs
Goblins

Morgoth/Valkrill
Balrogs
Dragons
Great Spiders (including Ungloiant and Shelob)
Werewolves
Barrow Wights

I put Saruman and the Uruk-Hai as either Vydar or Utgar. Vydar fits because Saruman turned traitor and he values technology.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

This question just came up in our Fellowship A discussion, and we decided it should be moved here for the whole group to discuss.

The question is - how do we decide which "bad" characters are from Utgar and which are from Valkrill?

I think having a general metric would be helpful so that the final outcomes are all "thematically" matched. I thought of 3 that could work:
1) Utgar gets all figures from Mordor and Valkrill gets all other figures
2) Valkrill gets all Sauroman's figures and Utgar gets all the others
3) Valkrill gets the humans and some other non-orc figures and Utgar gets the others.

Personally I prefer (1) or (2) over (3) with a slight preference towards (2).

I'm hoping some of you can chime in with:
A) Ranking of (1)-(3) above
B) Any alternative metric you think of

We can extend this discussion to the other Generals as well, but I think many of the questions there are either clearer (i.e. all elves probably go to Ullar) or less important for group consensus before fellowships start, with the possible exception of men between Jandar & Einar. But I'm hoping to keep the initial discussion focused on just Utgar v. Valkrill to be more productive.

Also important to think about how each of these metrics affects characters like Smaug, who is more independent.

Thoughts?

Personally I'm not sure if there are any figures in the lore that are a good match for the raw destructive chaos of Valkrill, but I'm sure we'll find an exception sooner or later.


Which is to say I would prefer most villains follow either Utgar or Vydar.


--


We will also make alternate art cards using HoME specific generals. We haven't figured that part out yet.

[MasterScaper1]

Well I don't know if I agree or disagree with you guys but I think that almost every bad guy figures shall be from either Utgar or Valkrill, so they will have a better synergy. For example if Saruman and Sauron are from Utgar, then the rest of their armies shall be from Utgar as well.

[Chris Perkins]

I think I like White Knight's breakdown better than any of the 3 I proposed, as the "big bad one-offs" like Balrogs & Smaug fit better with Valkrill than anything else I can think of.

I'm a bit torn on Sauroman - I kinda feel like he should be in Utgar, but if he is then we don't have much use for Vydar. I certainly agree that if Sauroman is Vydar, all of his Uruks should also be from Vydar (and same if he's Utgar).

I'm going to break my own rule about keeping this to "evil" characters because I think we need to hash-out what Vydar gets in order to answer this question, and that requires figuring out where most of the "good" characters fit in.

Most of this is probably not terribly controversial, but if we started with something like this:
Ullar - Elves, Ents, Wizards (not Sauroman)
Jandar - Men of Gondor
Einar - Men of Rohan
Aquilla - Dwarves

The main figures this leaves un-accounted for are:
- Hobbits
- Powerful spirits like Bombadil & Goldberry
- Eagles
- Men of Lake-Town (and other non-Rohan or Gondor men if we have them)

With that in mind, I see the best uses for Vydar as either being all the hobbits or for Sauroman's forces. I'm ok with putting Sauroman as Vydar if we have a good solution for the Hobbits, as the other figures aren't as central and don't make sense to have a general based around them either.

One option for the hobbits is to fit them into whatever general they end up "closest" to. This would mean Merry with Einar (Rohan), Pippin with Jandar (Gondor), Sam with Ullar (loves Elves), and Frodo & Bilbo with ??

Another option is to use Vydar for all "powerful spirits", like Wizards, Bombadil, Eagles, etc. In this world, we could either keep Sauroman as Vydar (and make his Uruks Vydar also) or make Sauroman Utgar.

Thoughts?

I'm mainly bringing this up now so that our fellowships can make more finalized versions of their cards, as any heroes from Utgar can be used with Ornak's "red flag of fury", for example.

[Shiftrex]

I like the thought of using Vydar for powerful spuruts, and also mixing the hobbits where ever they would go. The small folk arent a war faring faction, they learned their trade through adventure and interaction with others.

Frodo isnt Jandar

Also, Vydar could make sense for the Isenguarders, they were specially bred and were described as even looking different from orcs and mordor Uruks.

[MasterScaper1]

I have always seen Vydar as Neutral and I don't think that Saruman is neutral in this war but I like that Wizards or eagles be part of that army.

[White Knight]

More of my early notes (including the Silmarillion peoples):

Jandar
- great eagles
- Huan (great hound)
- Vanyar elves (loved by Manwë)
- Edain (men)
- Dunedain (men)

Ullar
- Ents
- Teleri elves (adoration for the sea/forest)
- Avair "Wood Elves" (can also be Aquilla) (secretive, lovers of the forests and animal)

Einar
- Noldor elves (can also be Vydar) (great skill with metal and gems, deep knowledge, great warriors)
- Rohirrim (men)

Vydar
- stone giants (can also be Utgar or Valkrill)
- Numenoreans (men)

Aquilla
- dwarves
- Haladin (men)
- Woses (men)

Utgar
- Black Numenoreans (men)

I had the hobbits as Jandar, but I would be ok with them following different generals.


I also separated the wizards one per general:
Galdalf - Jandar
Radagast - Ullar (or Aquilla)
Saruman - Vydar or Utgar
Alatar - Einar
Pallando - Vydar or Utgar

[MasterScaper1]

Originally Posted by White Knight

More of my early notes (including the Silmarillion peoples):

Jandar
- great eagles
- Huan (great hound)
- Vanyar elves (loved by Manwë)
- Edain (men)
- Dunedain (men)

Ullar
- Ents
- Teleri elves (adoration for the sea/forest)
- Avair "Wood Elves" (can also be Aquilla) (secretive, lovers of the forests and animal)

Einar
- Noldor elves (can also be Vydar) (great skill with metal and gems, deep knowledge, great warriors)
- Rohirrim (men)

Vydar
- stone giants (can also be Utgar or Valkrill)
- Numenoreans (men)

Aquilla
- dwarves
- Haladin (men)
- Woses (men)

Utgar
- Black Numenoreans (men)

I had the hobbits as Jandar, but I would be ok with them following different generals.


I also separated the wizards one per general:
Galdalf - Jandar
Radagast - Ullar (or Aquilla)
Saruman - Vydar or Utgar
Alatar - Einar
Pallando - Vydar or Utgar

I think that what @White Knight have here is what I have in mind. I like this!

[Chris Perkins]

I also like White Knight's breakdowns here a lot.

I have a few small tweaks I might make, such as moving the Noldor to Ullar (Einar mostly only had men in his army) and I would put stone giants in Valkrill, but I like this breakdown with Sauroman in Vydar. It makes Vydar the general who changes allegiances (Sauroman and Numenorians), which is quite nice.

I'll go through my list of characters by pack later tonight and add a general based on this breakdown for each figure so we can see what this looks like implemented.

[Chris Perkins]

To clarify @White Knight - would your breakdown treat men of Gondor in the 3rd age as Jandar or Vydar?

[caps]

Originally Posted by White Knight

More of my early notes (including the Silmarillion peoples):

Jandar
- great eagles
- Huan (great hound)
- Vanyar elves (loved by Manwë)
- Edain (men)
- Dunedain (men)

Ullar
- Ents
- Teleri elves (adoration for the sea/forest)
- Avair "Wood Elves" (can also be Aquilla) (secretive, lovers of the forests and animal)

Einar
- Noldor elves (can also be Vydar) (great skill with metal and gems, deep knowledge, great warriors)
- Rohirrim (men)

Vydar
- stone giants (can also be Utgar or Valkrill)
- Numenoreans (men)

Aquilla
- dwarves
- Haladin (men)
- Woses (men)

Utgar
- Black Numenoreans (men)

I had the hobbits as Jandar, but I would be ok with them following different generals.


I also separated the wizards one per general:
Galdalf - Jandar
Radagast - Ullar (or Aquilla)
Saruman - Vydar or Utgar
Alatar - Einar
Pallando - Vydar or Utgar

I also like this pretty well.

I am okay with the hobbits either all following Ullar, or being mixed into different generals based on their allegiances.

I am against figures like Gandalf following Vydar, just as I am against any Orcs or Uruks following Vydar. Vydar is for betrayers (like Saruman and Worm tongue) and those of ambiguous morality (the master of lake town, for instance).

[MasterScaper1]

In my opinion if we make 2 Sarumans, them we may put 1 in Vydar and the other in Utgar, but I am against putting him in Vydar as he was the big bad in the 1st and 2nd books.