Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[Riggler]

Originally Posted by Scape Goes Up to 11!

As far as increasing start zone sizes - aside from numerous other issues, already mentioned; someone would have to go back through all existing maps and add larger zones to them - would/could be a pain.

This is the first I've seen of someone discuss changing our number of start zones since....oh, we started several BOV years ago. We had heated discussions about it then. Did math and stuff like that. I don't forsee the number of start spaces ever changing. 24 start spaces have become so standard it's almost official for competative maps.

As for the other stuff you mention regarding reinforcements fall into the realm of scenarios and the decisions that tournament directors make about specific tournaments.

We stay as far away from those as possible. Although with the new Treasure Glyphs, we seem to have two options: 1) Ignore them altogether or 2) Add something to our guidelines to address them.

So far we've ignored them. But I believe we are very close to announcing a change to our guidelines as a way to accomodate them.

[tcglkn]

Originally Posted by Riggler

We stay as far away from those as possible. Although with the new Treasure Glyphs, we seem to have two options: 1) Ignore them altogether or 2) Add something to our guidelines to address them.

So far we've ignored them. But I believe we are very close to announcing a change to our guidelines as a way to accomodate them.

I am interested in seeing how this works out. Also I have a question, if I make a map using only RotV, FotA, and RttFF, can I use a SotM glyph and still submit it to the BoV?

[Riggler]

Update 4/30/10
Logged nominations and votes
Yes to review Underground Iceways by Kahrma, and Riggler
Moved Undergrond Iceways to under review
Yes to induct Slash and Burn by Riggler
No to induct Versuvian by Riggler
Yes to induct Striking Distance by Dignan

Maps pending acceptance for review:

None

Maps currently being reviewed:

Striking Distance by Dignan
YES = 2 (Riggler, 1Mmirg) ; NO = 1 (Matthias Maccabeus); Pending = 2 (Kahrma , nyys) *Dignan removed from process per being map creator

Noctis by Mad_Wookie
YES = 1 (Riggler) ; NO = 1(Dignan) ; Pending = 4(1Mmirg, Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys)

Slash and Burn by Dignan
YES = 1 (Riggler); NO = 1(Matthias Maccabeus) ; Pending = 3 (1Mmirg, Kahrma, nyys)* Dignan removed from process per being map creator.

Vesuvian by dok
YES = 1(Matthias Maccabeus); NO = 1 (Riggler); Pending = 4 (1Mmirg, Dignan, Kahrma, nyys)

Migol's Gate by Velenne
YES = 0; NO = 0; Pending = 6 (1Mmirg, Dignan, Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, Riggler)

Underground Iceways by 1Mmirg*
YES = 0; NO = 0; Pending = 5 (Dignan, Kahrma, Matthias Maccabeus, nyys, Riggler)*1Mmirg removed from process per being map creator.

[Riggler]

Originally Posted by tcglkn

Also I have a question, if I make a map using only RotV, FotA, and RttFF, can I use a SotM glyph and still submit it to the BoV?

I don't know that his has ever been answered. It might should be clarified in the guidelines. But it's something I've thought about since I'd like to see more power side up glyphs used in map design.

Seeing as how glyphs came with Wave 1 and we don't list that among building materials I would take that to mean that either one of two things: Wave 1 glyphs aren't usable at all or set requirements do not have anything to do with using glyphs. I'm going with the latter.

IOW, Yes, you can use use a SotM glyph in a non-SotM build and it would be ok for BOV.

[tcglkn]

Originally Posted by Riggler

I don't know that his has ever been answered. It might should be clarified in the guidelines. But it's something I've thought about since I'd like to see more power side up glyphs used in map design.

Seeing as how glyphs came with Wave 1 and we don't list that among building materials I would take that to mean that either one of two things: Wave 1 glyphs aren't usable at all or set requirements do not have anything to do with using glyphs. I'm going with the latter.

IOW, Yes, you can use use a SotM glyph in a non-SotM build and it would be ok for BOV.

Thanks, thats what I was thinking, because chances are any tourny will have at least one map with a SotM build that you could use the glyphs from. I was also wondering about the Wave 1 Glyphs because I have a Wind Glyph in my "Ruins of the Vahalla Capital" Map in my map thread. (Link in Signature)

[rednax]

I think there's a good reason why there are 24 hex start zones.

• For some maps it's very simple to say that one of the 24-hex pieces is you start zone.
• It makes sense for armies. You can get 8 3-space squads, 6 4-space squads, or 4 6-space squads. Armies like the Ashigaru, Trons/Raelin, and others just seem to fit perfectly.
• We don't need anyone playing like 7 squads of 4th Mass or 4 squads of Rats. This would be chaos practically.
• We're used to 24-hex start zones.

That's my opinion on the subject least. Thought I'd throw in my

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by rednax

I think there's a good reason why there are 24 hex start zones.

• For some maps it's very simple to say that one of the 24-hex pieces is you start zone.
  It makes sense for armies. You can get 8 3-space squads, 6-4 space squads, or 4 6-space squads. Armies like the Ashigaru, Trons/Raelin, and others just seem to fit perfectly.
  We don't need anyone playing like 7 squads of 4th Mass or 4 squads of Rats. This would be chaos practically.
  We're used to 24-hex start zones.

That's my opinion on the subject least. Thought I'd throw in my

I know this a bit off topic for a BoV thread, but I couldn't find anything by searching. Has anyone written any articles or blogs on how a larger starting zone would affect the metagame? Rednax has stated some good reasons for not increasing, but I'm just curious if there is an interesting argument that is PRO-increasing starting zones.

[Killometer]

Originally Posted by Gulp

I know this a bit off topic for a BoV thread, but I couldn't find anything by searching. Has anyone written any articles or blogs on how a larger starting zone would affect the metagame. Rednax has stated some good reasons for not increasing, but I'm just curious if there is an interesting argument that is PRO-increasing starting zones.

Oregon is having a tourney with a 24 figure limit. I'm going to be keeping an eye on it to see how it plays out.

[Revdyer]

Grungebob did some study a couple of years ago, for tournament purposes, about how it was start zone size, rather than army point count, that seemed to determine how long games (naturally, i.e. without a time limit) ran. I can't seem to find those postings, though...sorry.

[nyys]

Yep, game length was a huge factor, though the actual posts are escaping me as well.

[1Mmirg]

Noctis by Mad_Wookie

This is a well-constructed, aesthetically-sharp, and intense map. Play is fast and fun. I like the use of shadow tiles to offer a safer (though low) route through the middle, as well as their use elsewhere to offer some low counters to high spots. The water is nicely deployed to make claiming the high ground difficult; the LOS blockers are nicely arrayed to keep ranged units moving as they try to track their targets (I wouldn’t mind seeing them raised up a bit, to be even more effective, but there are I recognize limited pieces to use). In all, this is a tight, smartly-build map.

However (and you knew that “however” was coming ), this map does have a handful of problematic issues, that I’ll group into two areas of concern:

1) The glyph placement – close together and low in the center (along with the climb needed to get to the height at the edges or even just to skirt around the center) – leads to a King of the Center effect. Almost all units and resources pour to the center or the mid-levels of the adjacent hills. (Only the AE ever stepped foot near the corners of the map from what I saw.) I think if the glyphs had been pushed outward a bit (perhaps on the (relatively) low rock spots near the highest points of the map; some other adjustments might have been needed still) that play would have been a lot more balanced, more choices would have been offered, and the King of Center effect would have been eliminated. (The shadow spaces – and the close proximity to the enemy through the valley – should still have made the center viable and active, but not so heavily so.)

2) Terrain height differences – especially those 3 and over – make this map very hard to navigate for units (particularly melee units). As Dignan has pointed out these differences also give the Rats “cover” in guarding glyphs from the outside edge, but beyond this it makes the map, which at first glance doesn’t seem too large, play much larger than it is, especially for melee units.

In my opinion, melee units take quite a beating on this map. The central canyon, for example, only has two places where a unit can exit on the enemy’s side that don’t require a full four space move (and these still are two-high climbs). With ranged units dancing around the upper fringe (which for all practical purposes is the high point of this map) and any blockers in the center, melee units get chewed up incredibly quickly trying to scale the canyon walls, or skirt the uneven edge. (One other effect of this are virtual choke-point--aside from a few other choke points on the map, even more are made because height differences make it incredibly difficult to skirt a blocking figure--and, for Dwarves, going around a figure ends up being a disengage, because of their height.)

I like this map – it is fun, it makes nice use of the BftU, it is definitely attractive and well-built, it takes a smaller amount of terrain and makes it feel like a lot more. But for me, the glyph placement, the central focus with so much of the periphery left (generally) unused, the difficult to navigate height differences and choke points, and how rough this map plays for melee, all make me finally (sadly) say NO to inducting it into the BOV.

This is a beautiful, refined, and enjoyable map, but feels just a bit off for me. I’d love to see the concept revisited. Thanks for being one of the very first into the BftU fray, Mad_Wookie. I love your work and hope to see more of it (maybe even this map again).

[Elstree]

Regarding the start zone issue, it's simply not feasible for BOV judges to playtest every possible start zone standard that people might wish to use. Instead, they test the most commonly used start zone size. Of course tournament directors can use different limits if they chose. If you'd like to play a tournament using smaller or larger start zones, that's an issue to raise with your local TD.