Public Design Workshop

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

The thing about another set of markers is that each new set makes them trickier to balance (when you can start dropping JL, Masters of Evil, and Avengers Markers, there's a lot of room for stacked effects). Also, from a style standpoint, I know I'd like to see the Justice League take a slightly different tack than the Avengers.

Honestly, I'm still fairly happy with what the present Martian Manhunter's got - and with something like the JL or Avengers, you either need to go the marker route or make it all encompassing. I genuinely see no other way to make Justice League Leadership work.

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Adding a d20 roll to the Detective power seems like a good idea. I think adding the round number to the roll isn't necessary though. Just a 14+ chance for looking at each OM, with the X reveal only able to remove an OM that he has looked at should help keep it from being too good. I'd think an unengaged requirement would also help keep it balanced as then directly fighting him would keep him too busy to be doing his detective thing.

I don't understand why people keep calling him a JL leader though. Nothing about the power says 'leader' at all. The title does not reference any type of leadership power, the power itself does not indicate any type of leadership skills. He is simply fighting along side an ally and he most certainly a JL ally who fights. Furthermore he is only doing so at most once per round due to the engagement & X reveal requirements. With his detective power also using the X marker, he won't even be using it every round. That would be a pretty poor leadership power.

WORLD'S GREATEST DETECTIVE
Before taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is unengaged you may choose an opponent and roll the D20 once for each unrevealed Order Marker that opponent has in play. On a roll of 14 or higher you may look at the selected unrevealed Order Marker, do not reveal that Order Marker to any other players. After looking at an opponents unrevealed Order Marker with this power, you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and remove that Order Marker from play.

JUSTICE LEAGUE COMBATANT
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is engaged you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with any Champion, Scientist, Fearless, or Valiant Hero you control.

Providing turns to other characters screams leadership to me, and if it's not that, why is it really there? it's not feeling iconic to me - plenty of people fight on teams with other people, unless they're iconicly a leader or sidekick (or iconically a team-up, ala Beta Ray Bill, but that's very rare), they don't get powers like this. This just seems weird to me.

[Arkham]

I couldn't disagree more on Martian Manhunter. He could and should have always been a Justice League leader. His current card does not represent this. A JLA synergy is absolutely important, and needed, in heroscape. The lack of it thus far IMO is quite shocking. Batmans ability is a nice supplement to what could be, but I think it needs 2-3 more classes/personalities listed to cover more. At the very least he should cover the original 7.

[quozl]

Justice League synergy is pretty much every superhero.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by quozl

Justice League synergy is pretty much every superhero.

The Avengers are any different?

[Tornado]

Just limit JL to DC. Nuff said.

[laughing matter]

If we went the Marker route, I think this would capture the intended theme.

JUSTICE LEAGUE TACTICAL COMMAND
At the start of the game, you may choose up to 6) other Unique Heroes you control and place a Black Justice League Marker on each of their cards. After revealing an Order Marker on this card and after taking a turn with Batman, you may take a turn with one Unique Hero you control with a Justice League Marker on its card.

[Yodaking]

Batman has all the World's Finest comic book history where he teamed up with Superman (and later others). So he has a pretty strong history of teaming up with another heroes, more so than many other characters. Would your perception of the power change with a name change?

WORLD'S FINEST
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is engaged you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with any Champion, Scientist, Fearless, or Valiant Hero you control.

I really don't want him to 'team up' with every single member ever of the JL precisely so he is not the JL leader. A JL leadership role should go to someone else. I just want a Batman that plays well in a JL army build, but in not required to run a JL army. That is why the JL synergy is so minor in comparison to all the other team based powers we already have in C3G.

Here is his list of Worlds Finest allies (based on the wiki link above) that we already have cards for:
Superman - Champion & Valiant (both Superman I & II)
Green Arrow - Archer & Precise (Queen)
Wonder Woman - Champion & Determined
Black Canary - Vigilante & Determined
Atom - Scientist & Daring
Creeper - Interloper & Insane
Hawkman - Warrior & Fearless
Shazam! - Champion & Righteous
Aquaman - King & Valiant (I), Warrior & Determined (II)
Red Tornado - Protector & Benevolent
Plastic Man - Adventurer & Quirky
Zatanna - Magician & Tricky

I see 4 Champions, 3 Determined, 2 Valiants, & 2 Warriors, everything else only shows up once. Using those 4 would let him team up with 6 (but 8 different cards) of his Worlds' Finest team up allies. Since Green Arrow & Batman 'teamed up' to take down Superman, he is just another well trained human, and Black Canary is already included in Determined, I'd rather see Archer included over Champion (only Shazam isn't covered elsewhere).

WORLD'S FINEST
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is engaged you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with any Archer, Warrior, Determined, or Valiant Hero you control.

(Here are the other Archer & Valiant heroes we have, but Warrior & Determined don't yet have their own Synergy post to link)
*edit* Warrior includes the Warriors 3 & Asguardian Warrior, Vixen, Hawkgirl, Fratality, Frost Giants & Executioner. Determined includes Agent Hunter, Invincible, Lobster Johnson, Bishop, Cyclops, Ms. Marvel, Wild Fire, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Blink, Magneto, Speedy (Mia), Buffy, Psylocke, & Batman (Dick Grayson).

Now Batman isn't the Justice League leader, he is the World's Finest team up guy. It just so happens that several of his World's Finest team up allies are also JL members, making them good additions to a JL team assembled and lead by someone else (Martian Manhunter 2.0 would be my choice but I don't have a specific card idea in mind).

[Arkham]

Only person I wish was included as well would be Red Tornado, because I'd like to see him used in more synergies, but I think you covered all the ones I was mainly hoping to see covered. So I'm happy with it personally.

[Smithy Winfred]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Batman has all the World's Finest comic book history where he teamed up with Superman (and later others). So he has a pretty strong history of teaming up with another heroes, more so than many other characters. Would your perception of the power change with a name change?

WORLD'S FINEST
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is engaged you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with any Champion, Scientist, Fearless, or Valiant Hero you control.

I really don't want him to 'team up' with every single member ever of the JL precisely so he is not the JL leader. A JL leadership role should go to someone else. I just want a Batman that plays well in a JL army build, but in not required to run a JL army. That is why the JL synergy is so minor in comparison to all the other team based powers we already have in C3G.

Here is his list of Worlds Finest allies (based on the wiki link above) that we already have cards for:
Superman - Champion & Valiant (both Superman I & II)
Green Arrow - Archer & Precise (Queen)
Wonder Woman - Champion & Determined
Black Canary - Vigilante & Determined
Atom - Scientist & Daring
Creeper - Interloper & Insane
Hawkman - Warrior & Fearless
Shazam! - Champion & Righteous
Aquaman - King & Valiant (I), Warrior & Determined (II)
Red Tornado - Protector & Benevolent
Plastic Man - Adventurer & Quirky
Zatanna - Magician & Tricky

I see 4 Champions, 3 Determined, 2 Valiants, & 2 Warriors, everything else only shows up once. Using those 4 would let him team up with 6 (but 8 different cards) of his Worlds' Finest team up allies. Since Green Arrow & Batman 'teamed up' to take down Superman, he is just another well trained human, and Black Canary is already included in Determined, I'd rather see Archer included over Champion (only Shazam isn't covered elsewhere).

WORLD'S FINEST
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Batman, if Batman is engaged you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on this card and take an immediate turn with any Archer, Warrior, Determined, or Valiant Hero you control.

(Here are the other Archer & Valiant heroes we have, but Warrior & Determined don't yet have their own Synergy post to link)
*edit* Warrior includes the Warriors 3 & Asguardian Warrior, Vixen, Hawkgirl, Fratality, Frost Giants & Executioner. Determined includes Agent Hunter, Invincible, Lobster Johnson, Bishop, Cyclops, Ms. Marvel, Wild Fire, Green Lantern (John Stewart), Blink, Magneto, Speedy (Mia), Buffy, Psylocke, & Batman (Dick Grayson).

Now Batman isn't the Justice League leader, he is the World's Finest team up guy. It just so happens that several of his World's Finest team up allies are also JL members, making them good additions to a JL team assembled and lead by someone else (Martian Manhunter 2.0 would be my choice but I don't have a specific card idea in mind).

Not sure why you would add Warrior, which feels like a category that doesn't add much, but willfully take out Champion which takes out both Booster Gold, The Flash (Wally) and Shazam, not to mention many other viable options including Hercules, Invincible, Thor, (wonder woman is already covered, but she is also a champion), Mar-Vell, Quasar, and Omni Man, all of whom sound like people who would join the Justice League if they could (maybe not Omni-Man?). Sure it adds the two Super Skrulls, but thats a small price to pay for so many great options. That plus Valiant, when you limit it to unique heroes to knock off Allen the Alien and Odin, should give a pretty solid base of units to use for the JLA.

Also, Archer is a very low return addition (really only adding 4 units) and I feel like the power should be very wide reaching, I'd much rather add Officers, to grab the Green Lanterns, over Archer to get Green arrow. Fearless could be another option as well, but I think I'd be ok dropping Hawkman in order to not have Daredevil and Gorgon.

Determined is nice, and it adds quite a few good additions, and expands the base group a lot, but it does include several worrying members, Magneto (who breaks theme pretty bad) and Ms Marvel (who has annoying synergy conflicts as it is without bonding with another faction). It isn't deal breaking though.

I really don't like Warrior, mainly because it adds three non-Justice-ey figures (Frost Giants, Fatality, and Executioner) but also because, in future, it is going to be tough to avoid the class of Warrior for any villains we make just to not include them in the justice league. In addition, it doesn't add any great options that aren't already in the group already (Aquaman can be covered in determined and Hawkman with fearless, or not at all if need be)

Champion, Archer/Officer or a figure with the Valiant or determined personality.

That covers enough bases that it should be easy to work other members into the faction as time goes on, without making it too forced, at the same time keeping the list relatively simple. Primarily, the focus should be on adding as many JL-esque figures as possible, while removing as many non-JL-esque figures as we can. I think trying to force as many actual JL characters in as possible is a dangerous path.

[Yodaking]

The point of the power name and class/personality change was so that he would not longer be though of as a JL leader, but rather just a World's Finest team up guy. That JL link on his card appeared to be the hang up for more than one person. Martian Manhunter should be the guy that has more focused JL synergy, then when fielding the World's Finest Batman in the Martian Manhunter JL army build, you have some additional synergy between JL members without making Batman 3.0 specifically a JL leader.

[Arkham]

Warrior includes Hawkman, Hawkgirl, and Aquaman II. So I don't think it's a waste.

This whole debating about which to include and which not, is exactly why a marker system would be so much easier. You have to include the most important and notable, but so many people have so many different things that aren't covered. I see no reason why it including some that don't make sense in order to get the ones that do, is an issue here. Avengers markers can get placed on absolutely anyone.

I feel the easiest scenario is to have MM have 6 markers. Then, in Batman's power, have him choose a Unique hero at the start of the game to be part of his World's Finest team up. In addition, have it work with anyone with a JLA marker on their Army Card. Just have the JLA markers work differently than Avengers markers, instead of adding to attack or defense, give them some movement ability when taking a turn with another Hero that has a JLA marker.

For example:

JUSTICE LEAGUE COMMAND
At the start of the game you may choose up to 6 Unique Heroes in you control. Place a JLA marker on each figure's Army Card. At the end of the round, you may move any figure with a JLA up to 4 spaces each. Figures moved by this special never take leaving engagement attacks.

It doesn't have to be exactly that, it could be something that happens each time a figure with a JLA marker takes a turn, and another gets to move rather than all, but you get the idea. If it's something other than attack and defense boosting, it shouldn't cause issues with Avengers or potential combos overlapping.

That way Batman adds to it, and it adds to Batman. Win/Win and a solid start without all the convolution and leaving people out now and in the future etc.

[Yodaking]

That is the trouble of designing these things one at a time rather then all at once. I don't know what an eventual JL leader will look like so the Batman concept is such that it stands alone rather then working in concert with the eventual JL leader. I understand why you want to see the markers, it does allow you to bring in any of the many JL members into a JL team without leaving anyone out. Perhaps if a full design were presented by someone those who are not currently interested in recreating the Avengers markers system would be swayed to change their minds.