The C3G Cave - Hangout

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Subpar director and writer make sequel to subpar film: results are subpar. Can't say I'm shocked.

This has been my exact expectation since the movie was announced and nothing has made me think otherwise yet. I'll probably see it when it hits DVD, but I'm not expecting to like it.

EDIT: @IAmBatman next up for Marvel Netflix is Luke Cage this September. I've got high hopes for that. I'm 5 episodes into Daredevil Season 2. Enjoying it so far, but not quite as much as last season.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Subpar director and writer make sequel to subpar film: results are subpar. Can't say I'm shocked.

Best case scenario, this underperforms enough to get WB to shift gears and dump Snyder and Goyer, but not enough for them to scrap everything else. Suicide Squad, Wonder Woman, and Affleck's Batman all have potential, and I'd hate to lose them. It's just a shame that Superman's corner of the universe has been thoroughly torpedoed.

I thoroughly enjoyed their work on Watchmen and the Dark Knight Trilogy respectively. Your subpar is my 1000% better than anybody involved in the Burton/Schumacher era of DCU on film.

I guess it all depends on what you consider "par." If anything, to steal a page from Robin in Young Justice, I'd say they're a par director and writer who likely made a par film.

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

This has been my exact expectation since the movie was announced and nothing has made me think otherwise yet. I'll probably see it when it hits DVD, but I'm not expecting to like it.

EDIT: @IAmBatman next up for Marvel Netflix is Luke Cage this September. I've got high hopes for that. I'm 5 episodes into Daredevil Season 2. Enjoying it so far, but not quite as much as last season.

I think they've done a nice job in the second season of taking the universe they established and expanding on it.

[johnny139]

Snyder is definitely a love-him-or-hate-him kinda guy, but I think - by most critical measures - he's not a good director. His best movies, Watchman and 300, are so directly cribbed from their source material that his contributions generally do more harm than good. He's better than Schumacher for sure, and I would accept that he's as good if not better than Tim Burton (whose batting average isn't exactly great nowadays - as much as I love Ed Wood and Mars Attacks!).

He's style over substance, but if you like his style, it'll compensate for a lot of his shortcomings with theme and story. I can get that.

But Goyer... Goyer is a trash writer. He has "Story By" credits in TDK and TDKR, which are effectively meaningless in reference to the actual quality of the screenplay, leaving his only contribution to that franchise a co-writer credit on Batman Begins. Every other movie he's ever made a real contribution to has been absolute trash. Occasionally entertaining trash - like Blade! - but trash all the same. The man who brought The Crow: City of Angels, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, and Blade: Trinity to the screen cannot be called good, or even decent. Subpar is generous.

I could write a better script than Goyer. I think nine out of ten people on this forum could writer a better script than Goyer if we gave them a shot. Grab a random dude of the street and you've got at least a 50/50 shot of getting a better script than Goyer.

[Yodaking]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

In other news, finally finished Daredevil. Good stuff. No complaints. Excited about the metric ton of possibilities for Season 3.

What's next in the Netflix Superhero cycle? Iron Fist?

You didn't watch the Luke Cage teaser that pops up after you complete the last episode of DD S2 then? Luke Cage is this Fall, with Iron Fist starting filming soon with an expected release next Spring. Not sure if they are going to do any thing else before the Defenders Mini Series or not.

[Hahma]

Glad I'm primarily a Marvel fan

Though I enjoy Flash and Arrow, so DC has that anyway.

Finished Daredevil season 2 and loved it.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

You didn't watch the Luke Cage teaser that pops up after you complete the last episode of DD S2 then? Luke Cage is this Fall, with Iron Fist starting filming soon with an expected release next Spring. Not sure if they are going to do any thing else before the Defenders Mini Series or not.

No. It didn't pop up for me when I watched it through my blu-ray or through my computer .... where do I find it?

Originally Posted by johnny139

Snyder is definitely a love-him-or-hate-him kinda guy, but I think - by most critical measures - he's not a good director. His best movies, Watchman and 300, are so directly cribbed from their source material that his contributions generally do more harm than good. He's better than Schumacher for sure, and I would accept that he's as good if not better than Tim Burton (whose batting average isn't exactly great nowadays - as much as I love Ed Wood and Mars Attacks!).

He's style over substance, but if you like his style, it'll compensate for a lot of his shortcomings with theme and story. I can get that.

But Goyer... Goyer is a trash writer. He has "Story By" credits in TDK and TDKR, which are effectively meaningless in reference to the actual quality of the screenplay, leaving his only contribution to that franchise a co-writer credit on Batman Begins. Every other movie he's ever made a real contribution to has been absolute trash. Occasionally entertaining trash - like Blade! - but trash all the same. The man who brought The Crow: City of Angels, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance, and Blade: Trinity to the screen cannot be called good, or even decent. Subpar is generous.

I could write a better script than Goyer. I think nine out of ten people on this forum could writer a better script than Goyer if we gave them a shot. Grab a random dude of the street and you've got at least a 50/50 shot of getting a better script than Goyer.

Then why aren't you working in Hollywood?

I've done some screenwriting for a class in grad school. It's really hard. I think I did OK. I'm sure I could do better.

I think sometimes as fans we're too eager to completely trash people who pour their lives into their projects. We're a bit too much in a rush to be cynical and hold everyone to such high standards that we always have an opportunity to sneer down our noses at them.

I haven't seen half the movies you reference above. I guess I'll take your word on being generous. I guess I'm just saying we could all be a bit more generous and positive.

A story about characters I really enjoy is coming to the big screen. I'm sure it won't be perfect. I'll be coming in with a fairly low set of expectations. But I expect to enjoy it because I'm going to be open to enjoying it and I'm going to let myself appreciate the things it does well and the fun it has.

Maybe for you the fun is being confident you can do a better job than those folks who are paid big bucks for it? If so, I hope you pursue those dreams and get to live them. And if and when you do, I hope the fans of what you're working on are generous and positive.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Then why aren't you working in Hollywood?
...

I've never really bought into that defense for writers. In part because I have no faith that big-time success correlates with ability, and in part because there are plenty of good critics who are not good story-tellers. Being able to analyze a story well doesn't always go hand in hand with being able to write one well.

Haven't really seen much of Goyer's stuff, so I don't have any thoughts on him as a writer.

[Hellfire]

I find the current dialogue quite fascinating. Fwiw, I'm currently working on my MFA in screenwriting and have made a decent living for myself writing scripts/screenplays. In short, it's a lot of work. There is a lot going on that a typical fan (even in this transparent information age) isn't aware of and the informed fan doesn't get to see.

It is a complicated industry and much of one's success is determined by one's contacts (although this could be said of many industries). Some of the best screenplays are never even made into movies and their scripts live in development hell. Some of the best writers can't make the right connections to get their stuff optioned. Some of the worst writers make a lot of money writing drivel. Some writers have to watch in horror as they see their screenplay turn into something they didn't write.

Nevertheless, I still hope to at least option one script with a Hollywood creator of some kind in my lifetime ... Ha, if I'm lucky it'll get made into a movie that everyone hates. I'm not a huge fan of Goyer's work but there are worse professionals working inside and outside of Hollywood ... and props to him for finding consistent work in the Hollywood side of the industry. I'd love to be writing Hollywood blockbusters rather than the latest edition of Electrical Engineers v Application Engineers: Starting the Design Process.

As far as BvS is concerned, I plan to judge it for myself. I'll be seeing it tomorrow night. Many didn't like Man of Steel but I found the film engaging and cathartic; the latter being something I don't get from Marvel's "fun" films (Don't get me wrong ... I like Marvel's films ). Additionally, despite some parts of the film that bothered me (Goyer's dialogue for instance) I found the film to be underappreciated for its cinematic qualities and symbolism that were more layered than just Snyder likes sepia and slow-motion or Superman=Jesus.

I don't expect BvSDoJ to be a masterpiece or even amazing (can't remember the last time I expected any superhero film to be "amazing" ... okay, maybe Amazing Spiderman 2 ) but at the end of the day tomorrow, I hope to have enjoyed the film more than the critics apparently did.

[johnny139]

I don't feel the need to be particularly positive when talking about a famous and successful screenwriter who has no intention of ever reading a word I say. If the guy asked me personally to critique his script, I'd be a lot more diplomatic, but I rather doubt that David Goyer is going to show up on Heroscapers and shed a single tear over my negativity. Better men have said far worse, I'm sure.

If something's bad, call it bad, and explain why it's bad. If something's good, call it go, and explain why. If that's something you're doing on a personal basis, try to frame your criticism well, but I have no problem calling a duck a duck if we're having third-person discussion.

[davidlhsl]

Originally Posted by johnny139

I don't feel the need to be particularly positive when talking about a famous and successful screenwriter who has no intention of ever reading a word I say. If the guy asked me personally to critique his script, I'd be a lot more diplomatic, but I rather doubt that David Goyer is going to show up on Heroscapers and shed a single tear over my negativity. Better men have said far worse, I'm sure.

If something's bad, call it bad, and explain why it's bad. If something's good, call it go, and explain why. If that's something you're doing on a personal basis, try to frame your criticism well, but I have no problem calling a duck a duck if we're having third-person discussion.

Sorry to butt in on the conversation, but this is David Goyer hacking into davidlhsl's account since he doesn't post much any more. Not that it matters, but I'm at Panera Bread, and my tomato basil soup isn't as hot as I'd like it.

I've been crying my eyes out over the comments about my mad skreenriting skillz, because I really, really wanted to impress johnny139. I dunno. Maybe you're right. I can't believe I've been deluding myself the entire time thinking I could make it in Hollywood. I see that this Panera Bread location is looking for applicants, so what do I have to lose? Guess I'll grab an application.

I'm entering the choking sobs phase now, and I need to compose myself before my interview. Hopefully johnny139 will appreciate my turkey panini, because I put my heart into everything I do.

See ya around. Crap, I think davidlhsl is trying to access his account.

[Hellfire]

Originally Posted by davidlhsl

Sorry to butt in on the conversation, but this is David Goyer hacking into davidlhsl's account since he doesn't post much any more. Not that it matters, but I'm at Panera Bread, and my tomato basil soup isn't as hot as I'd like it.

I've been crying my eyes out over the comments about my mad skreenriting skillz, because I really, really wanted to impress johnny139. I dunno. Maybe you're right. I can't believe I've been deluding myself the entire time thinking I could make it in Hollywood. I see that this Panera Bread location is looking for applicants, so what do I have to lose? Guess I'll grab an application.

I'm entering the choking sobs phase now, and I need to compose myself before my interview. Hopefully johnny139 will appreciate my turkey panini, because I put my heart into everything I do.

See ya around. Crap, I think davidlhsl is trying to access his account.

Uh oh ... watch out Johnny!



David is watching you.

[dok]

Very enjoyable discussion, all. I've enjoyed reading the hate-reviews of BvS:DoJ (this one, by a a bonafide comic book nerd who I went to high school with, is a good example of the form), probably more than I will enjoy catching the movie itself on cable at some point.

Anyway, I saw this fun analysis of who has appeared alongside Batman and Superman over the years and I thought others might enjoy it.