The Book of Ne-Gok-Sa

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by Ingalls

Hi

I'm sorry if the question was answered before but i did not found :

Suppose I've Finn in my army and he dies. **** happens. I put his spirit on Carr. My oponant come with NGS and mindshackel my Carr... Does the spirit of Finn still stay with him?

I Guess yes but want to know your answers

Thanks

Yes.

[Jexik]

Until this August, I had never seen a Mindshackle attempt work.

The first was in the 5th game of the Heat of Battle at GenCon. I was playing against Matrix Renegade in a very close match. Ne-Gok-Sa single-handedly killed 4 or 5 Sacred Band figures and caused 4 wounds to Parmenio. There was one more sacred Band figure sitting on a glyph somewhere. The turn after Parmenio finally scored his first wound on Ne-Gok-Sa, I mindshackled him. Since our game was so close and long, there was a decent sized crowd watching at the end, and they exploded into excited cheers when I got that 20. That is definitely my most memorable 'scape moment yet.

The second was just yesterday, when I was teaching my older sister and her boyfriend how to play. On my second turn of the game, I walked NGS up to his Brunak and rolled a 20. They killed the traitor, then Ne-Gok-Sa, and eventually won the game, but it sure pissed them off. I felt sorta bad, but I didn't want to break the rules either.

[EternalThanos86]

For those of us who actually try Mindshackling on a regular basis...

...have you noticed any actual (as in real-life, not Theoryscape) value of adding Su-Bak-Na and/or Kee-Mo-Shi to your armies?

For SBN, the value is obvious. For KMS, I ask because when an army fields both Mindshacklers, it presents a unique problem for the opponent as to which of the heroes to take down first. The smart player goes after the weaker, more expensive Warwitch first, yet this gives NGS time to get wherever he needs to be while adding the benefit of more Mindshackle rolls (with the +1 bonus of SBN).

Thoughts?

[Hex_Enduction_Hour]

Originally Posted by EternalThanos86

For those of us who actually try Mindshackling on a regular basis...

...have you noticed any actual (as in real-life, not Theoryscape) value of adding Su-Bak-Na and/or Kee-Mo-Shi to your armies?

For SBN, the value is obvious. For KMS, I ask because when an army fields both Mindshacklers, it presents a unique problem for the opponent as to which of the heroes to take down first. The smart player goes after the weaker, more expensive Warwitch first, yet this gives NGS time to get wherever he needs to be while adding the benefit of more Mindshackle rolls (with the +1 bonus of SBN).

Thoughts?

I have noticed the high frequency in which I get to roll for Shackle when bonding NGS with Groks.

ET, have the Marro cavalry figured into your NGS plans?
If not an added bonus to your D20 roll how's about the chance to roll more often while moving up to three addition figures after NGS does his stuff.
Just a thought.

[EternalThanos86]

Originally Posted by Hex_Enduction_Hour

I have noticed the high frequency in which I get to roll for Shackle when bonding NGS with Groks.

ET, have the Marro cavalry figured into your NGS plans?
If not an added bonus to your D20 roll how's about the chance to roll more often while moving up to three addition figures after NGS does his stuff.
Just a thought.

When I was preparing for NHSD, I considered the Grok Riders. However, the general consensus seems to be that the Groks are not up to snuff in battle. Unfortunately, I only have one squad to work with, but when I get the chance, I am going to playtest an army built around the Marro Mindshacklers.

NGS---90pts
KMS---130pts

SBN+Nagrubsx3---240pts
Marcu---20pts
or
Groksx2---260pts

Total---470pts (extra points for other stuff)

[braxattack371]

ne-gok-sa is one of the most game changing characters in heroscape, he seems to always work for me.

[The Silver Surfer]

I got my first mind shackle yesterday with him (on full health Cap. America, no less!) and my brother quit on me in the middle of the game. He takes all the fun out of playing with Ne-Gok-Sa...

[manger]

I Find Ne-Gok-Sa to be quite threatening, I''ve even taken Ne-Gok-Sa to tournaments and forced opponents to play differently because of his presence. Ne-Gok-Sa's point value only increases as more and more new common squads come out that offer warlord bonding, he is and will remain at the top of the useful figures list.

[EternalThanos86]

Just posted this over in the Power Rankings thread, thought I would share it here as well.

Originally Posted by Some Guy

I have been pondering the abilities and usage of my favorite character, Ne-Gok-Sa, over the past few days. It seems that as time goes on, more and more the Ol' Mindshackler is losing his grip in the "Metagame." First, with somewhat recent rulings against him, NGS has lost a lot of power with his Mindshackle ability. For one, it does nothing against common squads (so, wait...he can Mindshackle the powerfully-minded? Is this like the reverse Jedi Mind Trick?). Now, his ability does NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against an enemy unit if you already have that unit in your own army. With this in mind, I set out to compare NGS to the bracket below him in the Power Rankings, because I would like to make the case that he deserves a B- ranking.

SELECTION PROCESS
Prior to doing the legwork, I chose a select number of units from the B+, B, and B- groups to test Ne-Gok-Sa against using the Heroscape Matchup Calculator for my raw data. I immeadiately disregarded common squads, as these do not accurately reflect on Ne-Gok-Sa's strengths. From the Unit Strategy Review,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody the Marro Stinger
Cheap Common Units: Ne-Gok-Sa’s other counters are in the form of common squads. Most of the ones that are effective against him are melee, but that doesn’t make them any less dangerous.

Most other units that relied on range were discarded since the Matchup Calculator is not made for such battles as range vs. melee. I also avoided units whose ranking was influenced by abilities like Bonding, Mind Link or other Wizard synergies, and/or auras for adjacent squad members. Lastly, I attempted to avoid Niche units (from Jexik's What's in an Order Marker?). Here are the units that made the final cut:
B+
Sgt. Drake Alexander SOTM
Spiderman
B
Brunak
Charos
Crixus
Finn the Viking Champion
Ninjas of the Northern Wind
Tagawa Samurai
Tor-Kul-Na
B-
Agent Carr
Izumi Samurai
Jotun
Kee-Mo-Shi
Kozuke Samurai
Mimring
Sgt. Drake Alexander ROTV
Sir Denrick
Sir Hawthorne
Su-Bak-Na
Tarn Viking Warriors
Wo-Sa-Ga

To make up for differences in point value, I instituted a formula called the "Victory Cost"
VC = Win % (from Heroscape Matchup Calculator) / point cost % (unit points divided by total points)

DATA AND ANALYSIS

B+ Bracket
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Sgt. Drake Alexander SOTM
VC = 0.68 vs. 1.17
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Spiderman
VC = 1.21 vs. 0.88
While this particular comparison make cause some eyebrows to raise, I need to add that the Matchup Calculator does not factor mobility. In this particular case, NGS has the advantage in head-to-head battle, but when factoring in mobility, the matchup levels out. NGS has a move of 5, while Spiderman has a normal move of 6 plus the Swing Line (which is activated by Spidey Sense 11) and a ranged, special attack that cause Ne-Gok-Sa to lose one defense die. On a map that has any elevation, Spiderman thorough beats NGS, as evidenced by Spiderman's correct Power Ranking of B+.
B+ Results = 1-1 (questionable "win" against Spiderman)

B Bracket
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Brunak
Starting off with a win against a higher costed figure is impressive. Carry offers a small tactical advantage to Brunak, but probably not enough to make up for the VC difference.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Charos
VC = 0.46 vs. 1.19
NGS is at his weakest against high-life heroes with devastating attacks and defenses of 4 or more. Charos does get the advantage for being able to Counterstrike (a no-no for NGS), but even without that, NGS does not have the VC to compete.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Crixus
Crixus eeks out a narrow victory. A good matchup that I will count as a tie, due to +/- 2% margin for terrain deviation.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Finn the Viking Champion
I expected this to be a brutal matchup for poor Finn. Yes, NGS clearly outshines him on the battlefield. The question is, how much is +1 attack worth?
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Ninjas of the Northern Wind
VC = 0.61 vs. 1.32
The tactical ability of the Disappearing Ninjas causes troubles for the slow-moving monster. Move along!
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Tagawa Samurai
VC = 0.72 vs. 1.21
Again, not a chance for poor NGS. Save him from the B bracket misery!
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Tor-Kul-Na
Figure out the VC if you want, it won't help NGS. See below for discussions on adding Romans against TKN and Grubs. Those darn high-life, high-defense, high-attack heroes!
B Results = 1-5-1

B- Bracket
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Agent Carr
Ne-Gok-Sa gives up 10 points in this battle, yet loses the overwhelming majority of the time, about 2 to 1.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Izumi Samurai
Ne-Gok-Sa has a 30 point advantage, but the lack of special attack against the high defense, counterstriking Izumi makes this match tough.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Jotun
VC = 0.40 vs. 1.24
Yikes! Not only is he susceptible to Throw, but the high attack of Jotun causes real problems for NGS. Add a squad of Groks or several squads of Romans with NGS and not much changes. Wild Swing takes care of pesky squads without dealing enough damage.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Kee-Mo-Shi
VC = 0.98 vs 1.02
Close match, which gives evidence for changing NGS's ranking to fit with the other Mindshackler.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Kozuke Samurai
See Agent Carr above, except make it 3 to 1.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Mimring
NGS ftw! First time against the selected B- units.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Sgt. Drake Alexander ROTV
Gives up 20 points and loses an average of 2 to 1. Just for fun:
VC = 0.78 vs. 1.18
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Sir Denrick
Win #2 for NGS. While, Denrick is made for countering Huge figures, I am not sure if this is enough to make up for the high win percentage of NGS along with being 10 points less.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Sir Hawthorne
A great comparison for Ne-Gok-Sa. Similar, 5% chances of game-changing ablities (however, both work in favor of NGS). Exact point value matchup. Hawthorne has a special attack, but against the strong defense of NGS, the attacker may be better off not using it. Either way, Sir Hawthorne wins almost 3 to 1. I think this is the best evidence for NGS belonging in the B- group.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Su-Bak-Na
VC = 0.67 vs. 1.18
Add a squad of Grubs for a mere 30 points and the VC swings further in favor of SBN & Co. However, before jumping off to quickly to condemn NGS, adding two squads of Legionnaires would certainly equal out the matchup. Both have bonding. Equal points. 9 figures vs. 4 figures. Hivelord bonding gives a slight advantage to SBN. The Shield Wall helps the Romans survive. Overall, I would say from experience that adding the "helping squads" for each of these mixes up this match up, making it a fair fight. Finding SBN in the B- range, I think it helps my case.
Ne-Gok-Sa vs. Tarn Viking Warriors
How sad! Even with a 40 point advantage, NGS can not survive the Berserker Charge of the Vikings. Just to remind the reader, the match up does not take into account movement. So NGS's extra move may make a difference. Then again, so might the Berserker charge.
Wo-Sa-Ga
Similar story to SBN, although VC is more heavily in favor of NGS in this matchup (0.74 vs. 1.16).
B- Results = 2-8-2 (ties going for the SBN/WSG match ups)

Final Results = 4-14-3

CONCLUSION
Seeing how poorly NGS does against his "better" match ups (moderately-costed unique heroes and squads) and how downright lost he in poor match up situations (which in the Metagame, are bound to happen often), I suggest that, in light of the effectiveness of Deathreavers at defensive walling and glyph holding, in light of poor bonding with a over-priced squad or a decent squad that is hard to compete with at the current point/start zone limitations, in light of the near impossibility of Mindshackling, Ne-Gok-Sa deserves to be placed in the B- Power Ranking category.

~ET86, with a tear in his eye for his first love

[kevindola]

Looks like your results show that he should be below the B- category.

I agree that he should be below a B ranking, however this comparison of head to head certainly does not take into account bonding with Groks or Legions, nor take into account the strategy modficiation needed by the threat of mind shackle to an opponent.

[SymphonyScaper]

Originally Posted by EternalThanos86

Just posted this over in the Power Rankings thread, thought I would share it here as well.

I don't follow the Power Rankings, because I only play casually, but I think Ne-Gok-Sa deserves his B rating. He wasn't built for a devastating frontal assualt, but a tough blocker with a good survivability that helps him use his special ability more. He also has bonding with the Romans and Groks, which helps his value. Romans with Ne-Gok-Sa is a very strong army, and one of my favourites.

Bottem line is: Ne-Gok-Sa will always be an old favourite. His cheap price and good survivability will always be an asset in persuading you to draft him, but these aren't the things that you would draft him for, you would draft him for Mind Shackle!

[Zhoom45]

Originally Posted by MKSentinel

something about a Ska, deathmetal, polka mix.

I saw this and nealy died laughing. That sounds like my brother's music right there.

Anyway, Ne-Gok-Sa is one of my favorite units to put into an army just because, not for any synergy or strategy reasons, just because he's fun to play as. I have had great luck with the mind-shackle, and due to his 6 def and low cost, no one ever attacks him until it's too late and I've mindshackled someone.