Marvelous Customs Project

[Drewman-chu]

I agree with some of Matt's points and suggestions about card creating and I everything Badger stated. This got me to thinking about my cards that have made and wether or not they are simple, complex or too complex.
I have recently completed several playtest with the cards I have created. The people that playtested them with me were a 11 year old and an adult both Heroscape newcomers. They had no problem understanding the powers and how they played after a couple of rounds. So maybe my cards aren't too complex for Marvelscape. When the newcomers used the offical Marvelscape cards against me they had just as many questions about powers and how they worked. So what's my point?
If you really look at it and think of it as person new to Heroscape, Ironman is the only simple character in terms of text and powers. All the others have a degree of complexity and learning curve. When I look at the Beast card I made you could very easily simplify him and just giver him a Stealth Leap power and call it a day, but when you lose his 2 other powers he loses a lot of strategy and theme. Another good example is Nighcrawer. I think the version that you made Balantai was pretty close to perfect and I would not know how to begin to trey to Marvelscape him nor would I want to. So the way I see cards in terms of text and play complexity is a scale: Ironman is at one end and the other end is CG3 creations that are very complex. In the middle are characters like Hulk, Spiderman, Silver Surfer and the other original Marvelscape characters. I also think a lot of CG3 designs would fit this middle ground. To me this is the sweet spot. A card that captures theme, is fun to use, and easy to play with.
I see Matt's point about how Ironman plays perfect and is Ironman, but every time I look at his card I think it's kind of blah and the same playability could have been achieved with different stats or powers. And a theme word like repulsors

[1Mmirg]

Those are good points. Iron Man really is simplified, but Silver Surfer or Hulk do bring in another level of complexity. Not as steep as some customs, but complex nonetheless.

The question of complexity would be something that the judges would have to work on. It's going to require judgment calls, but that's the point of having a range of different judges. In the SoV and the BoV we have judges who focus on different things. In the SoV, I'm not nearly at good at wording issues and what is "Scape language" as someone like Dad_Scaper. In the BoV, I don't focus as much on melee as Mathias, etc. Each judge has a place and makes a careful call, trying to seek for what in their minds equals a, for the SoV, figure that blends in seamlessly and effectively with other Scape cards or, for the BoV, a map that represents the best of the best in terms of maps and plays well for tournament and casual play.

You set up a standard and then you ask the judges to judge according to that. Calls are made and if the work is well done the community, all Scapers, begin to see the credibility and value of the work and the list of offered units (or maps or what have you).

The secret is having a clear standard and some guidelines to help achieve that standard.

[Taeblewalker]

Iron Man is a poor example.

As for Superman, you really can't get vulernability to magic without reinventing the game to have descriptors for powers. For example, a pentagram symbol for magic, and snowflake for cold, a flame for fire, and a few others.

While I think that limited application of this would be a great way to reboot Classic Heroscape, adding the flying symbol and at most four or five potential other symbols to the classic cards, it is clearly not the scoper of this project.

For this project, we do need to keep it simple. I strongly suggest we start with the Fantastic Four, since three of them are included in Wave 1, and go from there.

[Wolvie]

Hey Balantai.. nice project you got going. you can add my name to the intersted list

[Scapemage]

Just saw this. I'm game.

[Swamper]

See this makes no sense to me. Why would we intentionally make a Custom for Heroscape that has only been tested on the Marvel characters? It seems self-defeating to me. If I get the honor of being a judge for this, then I would definitely test them against classic armies.

Also, I agree with starting out with the FF. I think that would be a nice starting place for this little project.

[Scapemage]

Originally Posted by Swamper

See this makes no sense to me. Why would we intentionally make a Custom for Heroscape that has only been tested on the Marvel characters? It seems self-defeating to me. If I get the honor of being a judge for this, then I would definitely test them against classic armies.

Also, I agree with starting out with the FF. I think that would be a nice starting place for this little project.

I believe the intention was to make more comic-only customs. I'm not at all sure what the intention is however. How often do you mix Marvel and classic? I know that the intention over at C3G is that their custom can be mixed with classic, but it's not recommended. The comic customs created are intended to be their own game.

I think testing against C3G units wouldn't be a bad idea. Every unit that goes trhough the C3G process gets plenty of expert feedback and playtesting.

[1Mmirg]

Because to balance them against the Marvel units--which they have to congruent with--requires you test them with them. But they (the Marvel units) were NOT tested against the others specifically or extensively. So, you have to make a choice. Hulk is NOT balanced against his equivalent points in highly synergized SquadScape. He just isn't. He works okay, but only if you limit start zones and accept that the balance is loose, at best.

So, while I encourage some play against them, you're going to have a heck of a time balancing them against Squadscape.

I have two thoughts:

1) "Balance" them against classic units in the same way as current units--i.e. don't ask are the points equivalent, but is the relation of points about the same--do the new units seem to fair against classic units about as well as Marvel units do?

2) Decide on some limits (like Start Zones or army point totals) that help to mitigate the effects of Squadscape.

As a group you could come up with some parameters with which to make comparisons that are helpful by building in some limits like those.

Anyhow, again, it does make sense to me to play them in mixed Marvel/Supers formats, but you have to be very careful about what you consider "balance" and what you prioritize in your tests. I recommend prioritizing tests with the other Marvels. FWIW.

[hi1hi1hi1hi1]

I am very interested in the success of something in the Comic Section other than C3G. It's not that I don't like and appreciate it, it's just that it seems there is little support or interest taken in other users' customs. I know that I never get around to posting and reviewing many of the great cards I see on this website and its a shame. I would really hate to see this section of the community die.

Let me know what I can do to help.

[Swamper]

*ahem*

I think we've garnered all the support we will get at this point, so I say we go ahead and move forward with the next phase of our dastardly plan. If we are modeling this after the BoV, we need judges and by-laws. Here's my attempt at some guidelines.

-Possible Project-

Goal: To offer balanced marvel customs modeled after the original Marvel Expansion Set released by Hasbro.

BY-LAWS

Section 1 - Submitting Customs: Guidelines and Tips
1) Custom character should fall into the appropriate category at the time. EX- If the category is X-Men, you CAN submit a Wolverine custom, but not a THING custom.
2) Character should be tested against and modeled after the original 10 Marvel Characters - Iron Man, Spider Man, Dr. Doom, Thanos, Captain America, Venom, Abomination, Hulk, and Red Skull.
3) One may only submit ONE (1) custom for each category. EX- You can't submit both a Wolverine and an Iceman custom, but you can submit EITHER a Wolverine or an Iceman custom.
4) Make SURE your custom is not overly complicated; remember, our goal here is to make SIMPLE Marvel Customs.

Section 2 - Judging Customs
1) Each Custom will be playtested a MINIMUM of ??? times by each judge.
2) Each Custom will be playtested on AT LEAST ONE BoM map.
3) Consideration for approved customs will be based on the following: Balance, Simplicity, and Interesting play.
4) Great customs get approved; good ones don't. Don't let that discourage you.
5) Reviews on customs will be public, with either a YES or NO to approve being posted in BOLD RED.

Section 3 - Self Governance
1) The Council will contain ??? judges.
2) Judges maintain their position UNLESS
a) They are not heard from in 31 days, or
b) They miss reviews on 3 customs, whichever comes first.
3) Vacancy's will be filled by those that
a) Show an interest in serving and
b) Are approved by a SUPER MAJORITY of the current judges.



And thats my take on the by-laws. I got a lot from the BoV by-laws, so I think its sound. I'm sure improvements can be made upon it, however.

[quozl]

I'd like to see rotating judges.

[Balantai]

Great work, Swamper! I was waiting to see if anyone took the reins and pushed this forward.

I really think the first project should be "Reinforcements Arrive". We should accept customs that fit into the figures that never got released.

We also need an artist. I have GIMP and while I can make acceptable comic picture cards, it struggles with minis. I'd hate to prevent someone from submitting their card just because it doesn't fit the artistic standards of the project. Someone like Hi1 should be able to submit a card and if it's approved, we can convert it to the proper card.

I will respond to your by-laws shortly.