Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[Dysole]

I feel like what I'm asking for isn't outside of what you guys want. To be honest, I might've gotten involved from the beginning if I had known that it was going to turn into a giant build by committee thing. (Maybe it was and I wasn't paying attention but my initial understanding was you guys were building it and asking the community what they liked about it) I will be getting penalized for not being involved earlier for a myriad of reasons and only when I actually realized what was going on and did try to contribute. The fact that I entered late is a product of multiple things.

And I get that goal. The goal of "Incentivize the JLers" and "Allow people to play Justice League with whoever they want" are not mutually exclusive. I think we can get what we both want.

Bats version is not a simpler version of what I suggested. It takes some of the ideas but loses the general spirit behind what I wanted to accomplish there. You guys aren't mind readers so I can't really get mad at you for that but I wanted to make it clear before things moved on how I felt about it.

~Dysole, also admittedly under some real life stress at the moment which might be affecting me

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

That said, if you have some ideas for static bonuses that would make things work for you better, I certainly encourage you to post them.

I will mull this over and attempt to come up with something.

~Dysole, appreciatively

[IAmBatman]

Good. This is definitely a "show, don't tell" situation if you want to make waves.

I think Sock is a bit frustrated and wanting to make sure to hold onto his vision. He's been working very hard for quite a while to scratch everyone's itches here, but there's a limit to what we can do. I'm sure if you come up with an idea that expresses what you want while staying true to his vision, it'll get due consideration. But the ball is definitely in your court, as we've worn ourselves out on trying to "fix" this when we already have what we want, I think.

I've definitely been guilty of posting while stressed about real life (as well as posting in just about any other conceivable situation ... I mean, look at my post count, right?). So no worries there. Whatever it is, it'll get better. God is good.

I look forward to seeing what you come up with, man. But if you don't end up figuring anything out, that's OK too. I think what I last posted still does a lot for the open-synergy guys, even if it's not quite as much as you'd like.

[Arkham]

What if we did this approach? It's a mix of the Original Markers, Marker Burn, and done with a new approach that fits both better when combined.

Markers:
The markers are not placed on any other cards besides the designs with the powers giving them. The number of markers is dependent on how many you have of each class covered. The markers are actually what encourages the synergy, over just picking people randomly. You could just draft Green Arrow, and no other people within the classes listed, and you will only receive 1 marker. This marker does not have to be used on Green Arrow. This will be the encouragement to draft more thematic characters. If you build an entire army of thematic characters, in a 1,000 point game, you'll get 3-4 uses of the marker burn. If you draft in a larger game, you'll get more uses if you make a thematic army. However, these markers do not have to be used on specific class people, but that is the only way to obtain them.

Powers:
The powers are a little bit better, to include decent offering for anyone and everyone, but Martian Manhunter's d20 roll is the only that gives a better one to class specific people, for balance sake. Certain powers will get better based on how many markers you have. Martian Manhunter's control denial coverage, Cyborg's people moved, and Superman's initiative boost. They can be mediocre bonuses, or they can be absolutely amazing bonuses, in bigger games. It's all up to how many thematic characters you draft. However, the normal powers/boosts have been improved, and Batman and Superman's burns are open to anyone.

Martian Manhunter:

Spoiler Alert!

JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Archer, King, Magician, or Vigilante Heroes you control.

TELEPATHIC MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within X spaces of Martian Manhunter, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on army cards you control. All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. Once per turn, after a figure you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card to add 1 to that roll, or 3 to that roll if the figure is an Archer, King, Magician, or Vigilante.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

Batman:

Spoiler Alert!

THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Archer, Officer, Scientist, or Warrior Heroes you control.

TACTICAL STRATEGIST
When a figure you control is destroyed, you may immediately remove any unrevealed Order Markers and place them on any other card you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg:

Spoiler Alert!

TECHNO-SCIENCE DIVISION
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Protector or Scientist Heroes you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to X figures in your start zone, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on this card, up to 3 spaces each. Remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android Protector Heroes you control may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card. Once per round, after using Cybernetic Engineering, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card to remove 1 additional Wound Marker from this card, and the card of all Android Protector Heroes you control.

Superman:

Spoiler Alert!

JLA TRINITY
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, Warrior, or Vigilante Heroes you control.

SYMBOL OF JUSTICE
Add 1 to your initiative roll for each Justice League marker on army cards you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may choose a figure you control that is adjacent to the defending figure, remove 1 Justice League marker from this card, and roll defense and take any resulting wounds from that attack with the chosen figure.

HEROIC CARRY
If Superman passes over a friendly figure while moving, after moving Superman you may place that figure on any empty space adjacent to Superman. A friendly figure moved by Heroic Carry will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

MAN OF STEEL
When rolling defense against a normal attack from a figure that is not a Kryptonian, all blanks rolled count as extra shields.

The reason why this can be successful, for all involved, is it gives the best of both worlds. Say you want to draft Martian Manhunter, Spider-Man, Green Arrow, and Batman. You'll gain 3 markers to use on whoever you like. No messy placing them on cards, moving them around, or wondering who is getting what. 2 go on Martian Manhunter, 1 goes on Batman. Now if you want to play Batman, Green Arrow, Cyborg, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl, you'll get 4 markers placed on Batman to use.

In a bigger game, where you can stretch your legs a bit more as one would expect from the Justice League. You can draft Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, Cyborg, Red Tornado, Atom, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, and Zatanna for 2,500. You'll be getting 5 on Superman, 5 on Batman, and 4 on Cyborg. That's a +14 to initiative, 5 times a figure can defend for another figure, 5 -2 defense from Batman, and 4 people that can be moved at the end of the round through the Boom Tube. Of course, this is an ideal scenario, with multiple marker hubs, and all thematic characters, including the cheap Atom counting twice over. If that's not a reason to play them together I don't know what is, but you're not forced to play them together, and they aren't the only ones to be able to receive benefits if you want a random dude getting the marker burns for himself/herself. They won't come in excess, so I think it keeps itself in check.

This also takes a lot of clutter and cuts down on the wording a ton. In addition, the theme is even stronger here as the person offering the bonus is the one having to expend their energy in order to give the power boost. The more they are surrounded by thematic members, the better some of their powers become, and the further they will push themselves. It also avoids marker clutter on figures that already start with markers, for anyone concerned with that.

It's open, it's restricted, I feel it's as fair of a compromise you're going to get.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

I actually really like this! I think it will definitely wet the appetites of those wanting synergy within storyline team and those who like open synergy. Well done sir! I think you are on to something here.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

I actually really like this! I think it will definitely wet the appetites of those wanting synergy within storyline team and those who like open synergy. Well done sir! I think you are on to something here.

I think so too.

I think it hits on the best of both worlds effectively, and solves the problems each side has expressed issues with.

From the open side, there's no markers being placed on specific figures, so there's no feeling of exclusion. There's nobody who can't receive these benefits from marker burn.

From the restricted side, in order to receive markers, and more markers, you need to at least draft some thematic people. The more thematic people you draft, the better a couple of support powers get, and the more burns you can use.

From the theme side, the names of the powers accompany the groupings. The person burning the marker is the one expending the effort to boost their teammate in their own thematic way. There's no refusal to help someone because they aren't part of a class, however, if they aren't as familiar with the group they are in, they aren't as useful and prepared.

From the card clutter side, the text has gone down quite a bit. 3-5 lines from each card were removed, and the whole thing reads better than any proposed prior version of this. There's no confusion on who is gaining what, or how the markers are placed etc. and you won't have Green Lantern with 4 batteries and 4 JL markers, as I believe japes wasn't a fan of.

So IMO it's a win/win. I feel like it's the most streamlined version of what we all want, and will pose the best results from what we're all looking for. Dysole could play his army however he likes, whether he wants 1 thematic member or 5, and choose to use the burn(s) on whoever he likes. Yoda can play his thematic army and receive more burns and potentially increased versions of some of the bonuses, because of it.

[Dysole]

I was about to propose some adjustments to what Bats had but I like this latest version and I agree that it's a better compromise than what we had originally. I'm happy here. Carry on.

~Dysole, who thinks I may have been the only one really dragging my feet

[Spidey'tilIDie]

But it now seems totally worth it, as I think this new idea is the best one yet!

[Tornado]

End of the line.

[IAmBatman]

Perfection. This is, to me, inarguably the best version of this. It's simultaneously the most streamlined take we've had and the one that does the best job of being open and accomplishing our goals to encourage thematic drafting all at once. Bravo, sir. I think this thread has officially served its purpose.

And now I really want to see the Metal Men done as Android Protectors!

[japes]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

What if we did this approach? It's a mix of the Original Markers, Marker Burn, and done with a new approach that fits both better when combined.

Markers:
The markers are not placed on any other cards besides the designs with the powers giving them. The number of markers is dependent on how many you have of each class covered. The markers are actually what encourages the synergy, over just picking people randomly. You could just draft Green Arrow, and no other people within the classes listed, and you will only receive 1 marker. This marker does not have to be used on Green Arrow. This will be the encouragement to draft more thematic characters. If you build an entire army of thematic characters, in a 1,000 point game, you'll get 3-4 uses of the marker burn. If you draft in a larger game, you'll get more uses if you make a thematic army. However, these markers do not have to be used on specific class people, but that is the only way to obtain them.

Powers:
The powers are a little bit better, to include decent offering for anyone and everyone, but Martian Manhunter's d20 roll is the only that gives a better one to class specific people, for balance sake. Certain powers will get better based on how many markers you have. Martian Manhunter's control denial coverage, Cyborg's people moved, and Superman's initiative boost. They can be mediocre bonuses, or they can be absolutely amazing bonuses, in bigger games. It's all up to how many thematic characters you draft. However, the normal powers/boosts have been improved, and Batman and Superman's burns are open to anyone.

Martian Manhunter:

Spoiler Alert!

JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Archer, King, Magician, or Vigilante Heroes you control.

TELEPATHIC MIND LINK
An opponent may never take control of Martian Manhunter or any figure you control within X spaces of Martian Manhunter, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on army cards you control. All figures you control are considered within clear sight of each other. Once per turn, after a figure you control rolls the 20-sided die, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card to add 1 to that roll, or 3 to that roll if the figure is an Archer, King, Magician, or Vigilante.

DENSITY CONTROL
Martian Manhunter can move through all figures and obstacles such as ruins, and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. Martian Manhunter cannot be targeted by opponents' non-adjacent figures for any attacks or for any opponents' special powers that require clear sight. Martian Manhunter may not be moved by any special power on an opponent's Army Card.

Batman:

Spoiler Alert!

THE BRAVE AND THE BOLD
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Archer, Officer, Scientist, or Warrior Heroes you control.

TACTICAL STRATEGIST
When a figure you control is destroyed, you may immediately remove any unrevealed Order Markers and place them on any other card you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls attack dice, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card, and the defending figure must subtract 2 from its defense.

MASTER MARTIAL ARTIST
When attacking an opponent's adjacent figure with a normal attack, add one automatic skull to whatever is rolled. When defending against a normal attack from an adjacent figure, add one automatic shield to whatever is rolled, and all excess shields count as unblockable hits on the attacking figure.

Cyborg:

Spoiler Alert!

TECHNO-SCIENCE DIVISION
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Protector or Scientist Heroes you control.

BOOM TUBE TRANSPORT
At the start of the round, if Cyborg is in your start zone, you may choose to place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up on an empty space in your start zone. At the end of the round, you may move up to X figures in your start zone, where X equals the number of Justice League markers on this card, up to 3 spaces each. Remove the Glyph of Boom Tube from the battlefield.

CYBERNETIC ENGINEERING
At the end of a round, Cyborg and all Android Protector Heroes you control may remove 1 Wound Marker from that figure's card. Once per round, after using Cybernetic Engineering, you may remove 1 Justice League marker from this card to remove 1 additional Wound Marker from this card, and the card of all Android Protector Heroes you control.

Superman:

Spoiler Alert!

JLA TRINITY
At the start of the game, place 1 Justice League marker on this card for each Unique Champion, Warrior, or Vigilante Heroes you control.

SYMBOL OF JUSTICE
Add 1 to your initiative roll for each Justice League marker on army cards you control. Once per turn, before a figure you control rolls defense dice against a normal attack, you may choose a figure you control that is adjacent to the defending figure, remove 1 Justice League marker from this card, and roll defense and take any resulting wounds from that attack with the chosen figure.

HEROIC CARRY
If Superman passes over a friendly figure while moving, after moving Superman you may place that figure on any empty space adjacent to Superman. A friendly figure moved by Heroic Carry will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

MAN OF STEEL
When rolling defense against a normal attack from a figure that is not a Kryptonian, all blanks rolled count as extra shields.

The reason why this can be successful, for all involved, is it gives the best of both worlds. Say you want to draft Martian Manhunter, Spider-Man, Green Arrow, and Batman. You'll gain 3 markers to use on whoever you like. No messy placing them on cards, moving them around, or wondering who is getting what. 2 go on Martian Manhunter, 1 goes on Batman. Now if you want to play Batman, Green Arrow, Cyborg, Hawkman, and Hawkgirl, you'll get 4 markers placed on Batman to use.

In a bigger game, where you can stretch your legs a bit more as one would expect from the Justice League. You can draft Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, Cyborg, Red Tornado, Atom, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, and Zatanna for 2,500. You'll be getting 5 on Superman, 5 on Batman, and 4 on Cyborg. That's a +14 to initiative, 5 times a figure can defend for another figure, 5 -2 defense from Batman, and 4 people that can be moved at the end of the round through the Boom Tube. Of course, this is an ideal scenario, with multiple marker hubs, and all thematic characters, including the cheap Atom counting twice over. If that's not a reason to play them together I don't know what is, but you're not forced to play them together, and they aren't the only ones to be able to receive benefits if you want a random dude getting the marker burns for himself/herself. They won't come in excess, so I think it keeps itself in check.

This also takes a lot of clutter and cuts down on the wording a ton. In addition, the theme is even stronger here as the person offering the bonus is the one having to expend their energy in order to give the power boost. The more they are surrounded by thematic members, the better some of their powers become, and the further they will push themselves. It also avoids marker clutter on figures that already start with markers, for anyone concerned with that.

It's open, it's restricted, I feel it's as fair of a compromise you're going to get.

Great work Sock.

[IAmBatman]

Btw, forgot to mention that I really like the addition of Heroic Carry on Superman. I've thought for a while that a new version of him should really be able to "rescue" people in that way.

If it helps, after I finish my current Former Hero LD, I could snag Superman 3.0 for you guys. Just let me know.

Edit: It would be cool if Batman 3.0 could move Justice League markers to cards that have at least one on them as part of his Tactical Strategist power.

[Arkham]

I thought about that too Bats, and we could definitely include that.