The Book of Doctor Doom (Sorcerer)

[Tornado]

Glad to have you in the Danger Room Lazy Orang.

I think most really like the Hasbro Dr. Doom and working that flavor into a C3G design was the basis here. I get that it feels like a retread but it is fairly fresh if you ignore the Hasbro design.

Really looking forward to your thoughts on the magic system!

[TrollBrute]

I agree with Tornado here. It's only a retread if you consider Hasbro Doom a real part of C3G. Even though we started there and owe them a lot, we've mostly moved away from those designs. This is basically the C3G version of the Hasbro Doom.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

First off, glad to be aboard.

Glad to have you!

Second, cool idea to do a Sorcerer Doom design (especially considering the new magic system, which I'm glad I finally know what's happening with - it's been tantalising me for ages ).

Third, though, does his big power really need to be another mind control power? I mean, I'm sure it's thematic, but this is Doctor Doom, isn't he meant to be able to do a lot of different things? I like the design mostly, but I'm not that excited by the thought of one of his big two signature powers basically being another generic Mind Control (albeit with a risk attached) - I just feel like something a little more interesting could be done here, but maybe I'm missing something .

Like TB says, I don't tend to get much use out of the Hasbro units, and don't really count them as part of my 'canon', so I don't mind the overlap so much. Plus, I'm not a big fan of Hasbro Doom specifically; in the C3G arena especially, he fells over-costed and generally not befitting of Doom.

The ol' Mind Exchange trick is something that Doom's had in his arsenal for a long time (it was a Jack Kirby idea, natch), but it tends not to come up very much. But it does see use in the specific comics that I'm pulling from, though (the Waid/Wieringo Fantastic Four run, namely), so it felt like a natural fit.

Doom can do a lot of things, and I'd like to tackle them all eventually. I've got 2 or 3 different alternative Dooms in mind that would play up different aspects of the character and definitely wouldn't want a version of Mind Exchange on their cards. It felt right to me here, though, and I feel like the nature of his other powers puts him in a much different niche than Hasbro's Discount von Doom.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Glad to have you!

Like TB says, I don't tend to get much use out of the Hasbro units, and don't really count them as part of my 'canon', so I don't mind the overlap so much. Plus, I'm not a big fan of Hasbro Doom specifically; in the C3G arena especially, he fells over-costed and generally not befitting of Doom.

The ol' Mind Exchange trick is something that Doom's had in his arsenal for a long time (it was a Jack Kirby idea, natch), but it tends not to come up very much. But it does see use in the specific comics that I'm pulling from, though (the Waid/Wieringo Fantastic Four run, namely), so it felt like a natural fit.

Doom can do a lot of things, and I'd like to tackle them all eventually. I've got 2 or 3 different alternative Dooms in mind that would play up different aspects of the character and definitely wouldn't want a version of Mind Exchange on their cards. It felt right to me here, though, and I feel like the nature of his other powers puts him in a much different niche than Hasbro's Discount von Doom.

Fair enough, my concern wasn't so much with the old Doom (after all, who the hell plays him?), but more that we already have so many mind control powers that unless something interesting's done with them they're starting to feel a little stale now, but I get where you're coming from and I'm sure he'll be great fun to play.

[japes]

I play Hasbro Doom but like the mind swap aspect here so I can use Hasbro Doom less.

I do also play other Hasbro units as well. Hulk probably more so than the others.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by japes

I play Hasbro Doom but like the mind swap aspect here so I can use Hasbro Doom less.

I do also play other Hasbro units as well. Hulk probably more so than the others.

Hasbro Hulk's still great. The Hasbro units have their uses, even if the C3G ones are that bit better, IMO. Captain America comes to mind - the Captain you play if you want him leading squads! (A mixedscape army of a Jandar valiant base, Hasbro Cap and Thor sounds awesome and deadly - but, going off topic now).

Honestly, though, I always thought the Hasbro Doom was one of the worse Hasbro units, so if people feel a Mind Exchange power is iconic enough for Doom to play him despite his levels of crappiness, then I'm glad it's on this guy.

[Ronin]

To be fair to Hasbro Doom, Doom can be a very hard character to capture. He's got a lot going on and there are a lot of different ways you can implement him. I feel like the C3G version did a great job with him, albeit at the cost of some complexity on the card. There are some alternate universe versions of Doom I'd still like to see, and some takes that are keyed into specific stories, but I'm satisfied on the "plain ol' classic Doctor Doom" front. I don't think there's any competing with the C3G version. (Plus, we have the Hasbro version around if you really want him in your supervillain team-up but can't budget the C3G version)

[Ronin]

Played another game with Doom/Bats III. Actually pretty concerned about that combo, since it just crushed the FF even with not-so-great luck. I'd say Batman III is the foremost balance concern here, more-so than the Doombots.

Barring the possibility of something clever that would stop him working with Batman III (I got nothin'), I think we'll have to go back to a bigger failure range for Mystic Domination (1-5, scaling with markers). With the smaller range I've been using for the last few games (1-3), it's just too easy for Batman to get you a no-risk Magical Defense heavy-hitter.

[Yodaking]

Looks like we need to go back to -2 to the roll for each marker on the card. It should be a risky move to take him all the way up to 7/7 stats. Having him at max power level for only a short period of time seems like the best way to balance it. You can always just run him at 6/6 stats for the first 5 rounds of the game to minimize the risk before deciding to go all in only if you are losing.

[Ronin]

Yeah, it's a shame that we have to do that, though. Outside of Batman builds, I feel like he's already there, and I'd actually be arguing to push his cost down. Kind of a dream team for Batman because he can make a huge difference by intervening just a few times.

[Ronin]

So here's where we're at. Not done yet, because I'm planning on making a few changes to sort out his balance. More on that after the results so far.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Doctor Doom (II)

Version used for Games 1-2:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = DOCTOR DOOM
SECRET IDENTITY = VICTOR VON DOOM

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SORCERER
PERSONALITY = CRUEL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 370

INVOKED DEMONS
At the start of each round, you may place a black Invocation Marker on this card, to maximum of 2 Invocation Markers. Add 1 to Doctor Doom's Attack and Defense numbers for each Invocation Marker on this card.

MYSTIC DOMINATION
After revealing an Order Marker on this card and taking a turn with Doctor Doom, you must roll the 20-sided die. Subtract 2 from the roll for each Invocation Marker on this card. If you roll 1 or lower, all special powers on this card are negated for the rest of the game. If you roll 14 or higher, you may choose a Unique Hero within 4 clear sight spaces of Doctor Doom. Take temporary control of that figure and take an immediate turn with that figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Mystic Domination.

MAGICAL DEFENSE
When Doctor Doom is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Magical Defense special power, the most wounds Doctor Doom can take from this attack is one.

SUPER STRENGTH

FLYING

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Doctor Doom, Blob, Doctor Fate, Jason Voorhees (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Fate and Blob jump across the map at the start of the game, while Doom and Jason move up to meet them. Doom takes 2 turns this round and lands Mystic Domination once, but is only able to advance Jason. He attacks Reed, but does no damage. Jason does manage to get adjacent to Reed and deal a couple wounds with Relentless Slasher before he's brought down.

In round two, Doom places an Invocation Marker and takes initiative. He wounds Reed, but his Mystic Domination roll does nothing. The Fantastic Four return fire by putting a couple wounds on Doom with Flame On 4, and destroying Jason. Doom wounds Reed on his next turn. He hits his Mystic Domination roll and takes his turn with Torch, who uses Flame On 4 to destroy Reed and wound Sue before flying over next to Blob, where he can't hurt Doom.

The FF lose their next OM when Reed goes down, so Doom gets to take another turn. He puts 2 wounds on Sue, bringing her up to 4 wounds, and then hits a Mystic Domination roll to take a turn with Ben. Ben, improbably, fails to take out Sue, and puts a wound on Doom on his next turn.

On Doom's turn, he destroys Sue, then takes a turn with Johnny and puts 2 wounds on Ben with Flame On 4. He Supernovas with Johnny and does no damage. Doom gets one more turn in before Ben clobbers him, and manages to put a couple wounds on Ben.

In the clean-up, Jason finally makes a comeback, just in time to serve as insurance for Doctor Fate, who wins the battle against Ben on his last legs.

Super-strong showing here, but Doom was rolling ridiculously well. 5 outta 7 on Mystic Domination, which is absurd. Especially since at the end he had two markers on his card and was rolling at -4. Sure enough, he turned up two 18s in the last round to make the roll. Reed had terrible luck, on the opposite side of things, and never managed to activate two Adventurers once the fighting started.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done: 1 wound to Reed in 2 attacks, 3 wounds to Sue in 2 attacks (destroyed), 2 wounds to Ben in 1 attack
• Invoked Demons: markers placed at the start of round 2, round 3
• Mystic Domination: Did not negate self. 7 rolls. 5 extra turns
• Magical Defense/Damage Taken: 2 wounds from Flame On 4, 0 wounds in 1 attack from Johnny, 0 wounds in 1 attack from Reed, 3 wounds in 4 attacks from Ben

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Doctor Fate with 4 wounds, Jason unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Doctor Doom, Doombot x2, Doctor Fate, Blob (1015) vs Fantastic Four (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Doom plays a little more conservatively in this one, only placing one Invocation Marker at the start of round three, and keeping a couple Doombots in the Start Zone for backup. Doom does some offensive good here, but his Mystic Domination rolls aren't coming through. His main saving grace is that Fate manages to get Blob in good position to hold off Ben, giving Doom a chance to tangle with Reed and Johnny.

Doom really doesn't like Flame On 4, and it brings him down quickly. But the Doombots come though for him, giving Doom a second crack to do some damage. Notably, Doom manages to hit Ben (who, after a few rounds, has managed to punch his way through Fate and Blob) for 4 wounds on a whiffed defense roll, and takes out Johnny. Mystic Domination has a catastrophic failure and he negates himself, leading to a swift demise at Ben's hands.

Doom is saved again by a Doombot, but he's unable to accomplish much negated, and the Fantastic Four take the victory.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done: 3 wounds to Human Torch in 2 attacks (destroyed), 3 wounds to Mister Fantastic in 5 attacks, 4 wounds dealt to The Thing in 1 attack
• Invoked Demons: Marker placed at the start of round 3
• Mystic Domination: negated self on 8th roll. Took 2 extra turns. No wounds dealt on extra turns. Doombot advanced, Reed ineffectually attacked Torch.
• Magical Defense/Damage Taken: 1 wound from Reed in 2 attacks, 4 wounds from Flame On 4 (destroyed for the first time). 0 wounds from Reed in 2 attacks, 4 wounds from Ben in 2 attacks (destroyed for the second time). 2 wounds from Reed in 3 attacks, 2 wounds from Ben in 1 attack (destroyed the final time).

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Mister Fantastic with 3 wounds, Thing with 4 wounds, Sue unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Version used for Games 3-5:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = DOCTOR DOOM
SECRET IDENTITY = VICTOR VON DOOM

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = SORCERER
PERSONALITY = CRUEL

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 5
ATTACK = 5
DEFENSE = 5

POINTS = 355

INVOKED DEMONS
At the start of each round, you may place a black Invocation Marker on this card, to maximum of 2 Invocation Markers. Add 1 to Doctor Doom's Attack and Defense numbers for each Invocation Marker on this card. When rolling for Mystic Domination, if you roll X or lower, where X is 1 greater than the number of Invocation Markers on this card, all special powers on this card are negated for the rest of the game.

MYSTIC DOMINATION
After taking a turn with Doctor Doom, you must roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 15 or higher and you revealed an Order Marker on this card at the start of your turn, you may choose a Unique Hero within 4 clear sight spaces of Doctor Doom. Take temporary control of that figure and take an immediate turn with that figure. At the end of that turn, control of the chosen figure returns to the player who controlled the figure before the Mystic Domination.

MAGICAL DEFENSE
When Doctor Doom is attacked by an opponent's figure that does not have the Magical Defense special power, the most wounds Doctor Doom can take from this attack is one.

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Red Tornado, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Doom takes an Invocation Marker right off the bat and leads the charge for team 1, throwing down with the Avengers. Unfortunately for Doom, he only manages to get three turns in before the Avengers manage to hit him enough times to bring him down. Decoy of Doom clocks in at a 3, which not even Batman could help, putting Doom down for the count.

After Doom goes down, Batman manages to make himself a pain, but the Avengers still win.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done: 3 wounds to Ms. Marvel in 2 attacks (1 defense whiff, 1 attack ignored with Green Power Shield)
• Invoked Demons: 1 Marker placed at the start of round 1
• Mystic Domination: Did not negate self. 3 rolls. 2 extra turns. Took a turn with Red Arrow, who wounded Green Lantern on a whiffed defense roll. Took a turn with Green Lantern, who wounded Ms. Marvel.
• Magical Defense/Damage Taken: 1 wounds from Green Lantern in 2 attacks, 3 wounds from Ms. Marvel in 3 attacks (destroyed), 1 wound from Red Tornado in 1 attack

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Red Tornado with 4 wounds, Ms. Marvel with 4 wounds

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Red Tornado, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Doom stacks up Invocation Markers as quick as he can and wades into combat. The Avengers engage him, but do take a brief detour in the first couple rounds to destroy Batman and stop him from helping Doom.

The Avengers aren't rolling that well on attack, but for Doom's part, he's not rolling well for Mystic Domination. The Avengers don't bring him down until the start of the third round, and he bounces back into it with Decoy of Doom. Doom manages to hang with the Avengers long enough to wear Ms. Marvel down, which spells the end for the rest of the team. Even though Doom gets negated at the tail-end of round 4, he takes out Red Tornado before he loses his powers, leaving Ollie and Roy to deal with Hal.

Hal's already burned all but 1 battery marker, so he can't stand up to the archers.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done: 4 wounds to Ms. Marvel in 5 attacks (1 ignored with Green Power Shield), 3 wounds to Red Tornado in 2 attacks (destroyed)
• Invoked Demons: Doom places Invocation Markers at the start of rounds 1 and 2
• Mystic Domination: negated self on 9th roll. 1 extra turn. 1 roll low enough to negate self, but raised by Batman. Took a turn with Red Tornado and inflicted 1 wound on Ms. Marvel, destroying her.
• Magical Defense/Damage Taken: 2 wounds in 4 attacks from Ms. Marvel (destroyed the first time), 2 wounds in 2 attacks from Green Lantern, 1 wound from The Best Defense. After Decoy of Doom: 2 wounds in 2 attacks from Ms. Marvel, 1 wound in 2 attacks from Red Tornado

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Doom with 4 wounds, Red Arrow with 3 wounds, Green Arrow unwounded

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)

Spoiler Alert!

Doom leads the charge for Team 1, but gets pinned down by Reed and fails to do much damage before the Adventurers team up and bring him down, midway through the second round (by which point he's fully powered himself up with two markers).

Doom's Doombot backup comes through, and he charges back into the fight to KO Reed (who had previously taken 3 wounds in a lucky hit from Batman). Doom rolls a 3 for Mystic Domination, but Batman burns a marker to save him from negating himself. Doom attacks Johnny but fails to do any damage, and Johnny kicks off the round by putting a couple wounds each on Batman and Doom with Flame On 4.

Doom retaliates and rolls 5 skulls. Johnny is still within range of Sue, but whiffs on defense and goes down. Doom rolls a 2 for Mystic Domination and Batman has to burn another marker to save him. Doom finally has a Mystic Domination roll come through and he uses Ben to inflict 3 wounds on Sue.

Doom, now up to 4 wounds, goes and tries to take out Sue, but manages only to put her up to 4 wounds. Clobbering Time ensues, and Doom goes down for the count.

After Doom is destroyed, Green Arrow gets a Batman-assisted 20 for Skill Shot and brings Ben down. Sue doesn't last long as a solo act.

Unit Summary:

• Damage Done: 2 wounds to Mr Fantastic in 2 attacks (destroyed), 3 wounds to Human Torch in 2 attacks (destroyed), 3 wounds to the Thing in 1 attack. Took a turn with Thing, who inflicted 3 wounds on Invisible Woman.
• Invoked Demons: Markers placed at the start of round 1, round 2
• Mystic Domination: Did not negate self. 8 rolls. 1 extra turns. 2 rolls low enough to negate self, but raised by Batman.
• Magical Defense/Damage Taken: 0 wounds from Mr Fantastic in 2 attacks, 2 wounds from Human Torch in 2 attacks (destroyed the first time), 4 wounds from Flame On 4, 2 wounds from Invisible Woman in 2 attacks, 1 wound from the Thing in 3 attacks (destroyed, permanently)

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Batman with 2 wounds, Red Arrow and Green Arrow unwounded

So as things stand, he's definitely coming in too strong with Batman III. Looking back, there were some red flags in games 3-4 that I missed because I didn't type up the games right away.

From here, we have a few options for balancing him out, which we may want to adopt one or more of:

A - Raising the failure range for Mystic Domination

• Kind of the knee-jerk response, and it would solve some of his Batman issues, but I really hate to have him in a spot where he's balanced around one specific figure that's not even a thematic team-up. So far as I know, there really aren't any other d20 manipulators that can do what Batman does for him (and likely never will be, since you can only have so many open d20 manipulators).

B - Busting up the Batman synergy

• This would be nice, but with Batman's power being as open as it is, there's not really an elegant way to do it that I can think of. It would require something hacky like not letting Doom's d20 rolls be modified.

C - Busting up the Doombots synergy

• Batman is the real problem here, but taking away the Doombots would take the edge off even in Batman builds. Batman would still let you take away most or all of the risk associated with the Invocation Markers, but taking away the Doombot revivals would significantly diminish the returns on Batman's marker investments, and allow Doom to actually be in danger at some point during a game. Plus, it makes thematic sense; not only in the "focusing on magic rather than science" theme department, but also in that Doombots shouldn't be able to mimic magic/spell-casting.
• As for the how, explicitly saying in the text that you can't use Decoy of Doom could fit into Invoked Demons, though that does start to get the card a bit cluttered. There are a couple alternative options, as well:
  • We could cheat the Doombots a bit by naming the figure "Doom" rather than Doctor Doom, since Doom often refers to himself and is referred to that way. I'd prefer to keep him Doctor Doom to keep consistent with Doctor Doom (I) and Hasbro Doom, though.
  • We could go back and amend the Doombots to give them some kind of class criteria (EDIT: or any thing else that makes sense, not strictly class) that puts this Doom out of reach ("If you control a Doctor Doom who is a Ruler..." or what have you). Not nuts about the idea of updating an old unit to make this one work, but it would provide the additional benefit of cutting out any future Dooms that don't make as much sense with the Doombot back-up. If someone ever comes along and wants to do Zombie Doctor Doom or Beyonder-powered Doctor Doom or whatever, they won't have to deal with the Doombots.

And of course there is always

D - Change up the approach a little

I've spent a day mulling it over, and C in some form is my preferred balancing measure. But I'm open to whatever suggestions people have; I've been kind of forced to take this one slow, so there's no sense in rushing things now.

[Yodaking]

If we can make C work, and you think that would help mitigate the Batman III issue, then that seems like the best direction. Like you mentioned the theme works better if the Doombots were not available to him. FYI, I don't think the B option is all that 'hacky' in nature. We have talked about having d20 rolls that can't be modified on other cards before.