Race for the presidency political discussion thread

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Oh wow! I didn't see the long overdue response to stuff.. wow! Glad the communist party is back in biz!

Well, all I have to say is that the opinion of someone who has the gall to say that 100% of everyone they know has NO healthcare, yet lives in a neighborhood that looks like this:
pretty much carries no substantial weight.

Was this necessary? This is not the direction we want this thread to go. This is a good thread so far and I am not wanting it to turn into a personal tiff between two members. Have respect. Stay on task.

[SuperflyTNT]

Please Refer:

Heroscapers.com Guidelines for Conduct

Abusive behavior towards others. When you post in reply to people, pretend that you are arguing with an umpire.
“You blew that call, he was safe by a mile.” = Okay
“You blow.” = Ejected

Or, if we had a Heroscapers get-together, we were all eating pizza and drinking beer, having a good time, would yelling your comment get you punched, then or later? (Comments like his would get him knocked the **** out, believe it)

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT

Sorry, Imax, but you're off on this one . Children in the womb absolutely DO have a personality. My first daughter used to wiggle and kick whenever Bob Marley would be on the stereo, and would stop moving when operatic music was on. My youngest used to 'track' my wife's hand - literally touching where my wife touched, only on the inside. Amazing, but creepy.

So, I wold argue that children in the womb definately have a personality.

Ooh, I like what you did there - you disagreed with me, setting it up like you were about to shoot down the point, then actually reinforced it and brought it back on itself. Tricky stuff right there.

Gulp, I can understand the 2-3 months thing. I disagree, but if the abortion laws absolutely outlawed abortion after week 11, it would be a drastic improvement. It wouldn't be as good as I would like to see - it still allows a woman to avoid responsibility for her actions if she acts quickly - but it would be a lot better than what we have now. Right now a woman can get an abortion all the way up to 6 months, and I think that's horrific.

(Eleven weeks, by the way, is the start of discernible brain activity. If the little booger can think, it ought to have the rights enjoyed by every other sentient person, including the right to not be arbitrarily smoke tested.)

I'm bundling in two responses to two topics in one post.

Sweetcurse, I agree with you regarding universal health care. I am more adamant about this topic than nearly any other we've discussed. I am so completely in favor of universal health care that I would donate as much as I could to any candidate who would support it. I feel it is the most basic of Christian and American values that we all chip in to make certain that nobody in our country goes without the medical care they need, and it frustrates me to no end to see people oppose it as strongly as they do.

However, no matter how much we agree, you have got to tone it down. People who disagree about universal health care are not monsters. They are not blind, they are not low, they are not heartless or sad beings. Being this abusive has two negative effects on your argument.

First, you instantly raise barriers between yourself and anyone who disagrees with you. Nobody is going to be persuaded to join your side after you call them a blind, low, heartless monster. Hell, I agree with your stance on universal health care, and I don't want to side with you because I don't want to look like a loon-by-proxy.

Second, you devalue your own argument. You appear irrational and overly emotional, and whether your points are valid or not will be lost in your ranting. Even when you present good points and powerful arguments, they appear to be insane rambling when you start calling your opponents unholy devil men.

So scale it back a little. Take it down a notch. Ease off the throttle, killer. Holster those six-guns. Make up your own silly cliches, if it helps. You can be enthusiastic. You can be passionate. Just don't get so verbally violent.

[InfinityMax]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

Was this necessary? This is not the direction we want this thread to go. This is a good thread so far and I am not wanting it to turn into a personal tiff between two members. Have respect. Stay on task.

In all fairness, GB, Superfly and Fezzik both just came under ridiculously heated attack. I don't share their opinions regarding health care, but Sweetcurse's attack was completely unwarranted and extravagantly overblown. I think the replies he got from Fezzik and Superfly were quite reasonable by comparison.

[SuperflyTNT]

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

Infant Mortality Rates In:

US:
6.4 per million

Mexico:
19.6 per million

Average Lifespan In:

US: 78 years

Mexico: 75.6

It's pretty clear that the Mexican healthcare system is not as good as that in the US. Looking at these numbers, though, it's pretty clear that European countries do indeed have a better health/wellness system.

[InfinityMax]

This brings up a good point. Europeans countries do take better care of their citizens. Providing better lives for the people of your country seems like a no-brainer of a good idea to me.

Ironically, while I like to point to European nations as examples of how to do health care, there are two dangers that should be avoided when drawing those comparisons.

1) A desire to provide for our people this well is good; a desire to make ourselves just like they are is not. We are the US. We are not Portugal. Just because I want to provide for American citizens as well as Sweden provides for its citizens does not mean I want us to try to become Sweden.

2) A desire to provide for our people this well is good; a desire to relocate to improve your position is not. I want America to be that good. I don't want to move there because they're better. For one thing, they're not, they just do one thing better, and if we did that one thing that well, we would be WAY better.

Oh, and here's a funny link:
http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008...ove-to-canada/

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

In all fairness, GB, Superfly and Fezzik both just came under ridiculously heated attack. I don't share their opinions regarding health care, but Sweetcurse's attack was completely unwarranted and extravagantly overblown. I think the replies he got from Fezzik and Superfly were quite reasonable by comparison.

Absolutely agree. But then we start having our thread turning from passionate debate to personal attacks, the whole thing devolves. The line is when you attempt to invalidate an opinion based upon something like a photo. I expect a lot more from Fezzik, and SFTNT. They don't need to do this to make their point.

[SuperflyTNT]

The photo only illustrated the lunacy that a person who lives in an upper-middle class area (look at the cars, houses...) cannot possibly be telling the truth when he says that he knows not a single soul that has insurance. That's all...

And IMAX, the one loophole in the 'better health in Europe' conundrum is that they have a FAR less stressful lifestyle, are FAR less productive in industry, and have far, FAR better diets than we do. I'd argue that they've found the middle ground between money and lifestyle.

[Fezzikthedoor]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I expect a lot more from Fezzik, and SFTNT. They don't need to do this to make their point.

Hey, hey, hey! I didn't post a picture or even address the sob story he gave, though I certainly thought of quite a few things to say regarding his life experiences in regards to his argument. Don't go lumping me in there, guys.

Jeez...

[Gulp]

Originally Posted by InfinityMax

Ooh, I like what you did there - you disagreed with me, setting it up like you were about to shoot down the point, then actually reinforced it and brought it back on itself. Tricky stuff right there.

Gulp, I can understand the 2-3 months thing. I disagree, but if the abortion laws absolutely outlawed abortion after week 11, it would be a drastic improvement. It wouldn't be as good as I would like to see - it still allows a woman to avoid responsibility for her actions if she acts quickly - but it would be a lot better than what we have now. Right now a woman can get an abortion all the way up to 6 months, and I think that's horrific.

(Eleven weeks, by the way, is the start of discernible brain activity. If the little booger can think, it ought to have the rights enjoyed by every other sentient person, including the right to not be arbitrarily smoke tested.)

I'm going to take some time to do some reading on the topics that concern me, and see if I can figure out where I'm getting tangled up.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Fezzikthedoor

Hey, hey, hey! I didn't post a picture or even address the sob story he gave, though I certainly thought of quite a few things to say regarding his life experiences in regards to his argument. Don't go lumping me in there, guys.

Jeez...

This was a good lump. You are on par with some of this thread's MVPs. Addressing Sweetcurse's argument would be the exact correct way to deal with rebutting his post.

[Bannister]

I just thought it was funny.

Bannister