The Book of Mammoth

[IAmBatman]

A huge hit on 25% of attacks on a guy with this survivability does sound potentially problematic. I still think subbing shield for blank might do the trick.

[IAmBatman]

Programming note: I tested him with 3 attack, not the 4 attack posted in the SP currently:

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: (MAMMOTH)

Army Test
Map: HYDRA GEHENNA BASE
Units: Mammoth (215), Puppet Master (140), Captain America (240), Robot (210), Speedy (Mi) (80), Oracle (110) (1,000) VS Fantastic Four (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Done: 1 Wound on Mister Fantastic
When they were KO’d: Turn 2, Round 6.
WEAK-MINDED 4: Puppet Master rolled poorly and this wasn’t helpful enough to make a difference.
SUPER HUMAN RAGE: Attacks where blanks were rolled (1), Attacks that doubled 1 skull (0), Attacks that doubled 2 skulls (2), Attacks that doubled 3 skulls (0), Attacks that doubled 4+ skulls (0).
BROTHERLY DUTY: N/A

ROUND 1: Cap moves up, Robot carries Speedy up to the platform, and Robot commands Mammoth and Cap to move forward. Meanwhile, the Fan Four climb to the top of their platform and Human Torch fires an attack on Robot and hits him for one wound.
ROUND 2: Cap moves the rest of the way up the platform. Fan Four advance towards the enemy platform. Human Torch scores a second ranged wound on Robot. Speedy attacks Mister Fantastic with the help of height and Secret Attack Plan and hits for one wound. Invisible Woman moves up to the platform. Human Torch and Mister Fantastic flank her so she can’t be engaged. Human Torch misses an attack against Robot. Speedy gets a 4 skull attack with the help of Cap and Close Combat Expert, but can’t hit Mister Fantastic. Human Torch Flames On to wound Speedy (missed swipe) and misses an attack on Robot. Invisible Woman gives Speedy a second wound, but Mister Fantastic can’t give her a third. Speedy’s delicate health does not fail her.
ROUND 3: Mister Fantastic leads poorly, but does get a third wound on Speedy. Cap takes a swipe to get there, but he follows Oracle’s Secret Attack Plan, engages Invisible Woman, and hits her for two wounds. Invisible Woman repositions, but neither she nor Mister Fantastic can wound Speedy. Speedy can’t wound Mister Fantastic in close combat. Thing moves up onto the ladder. Human Torch moves to height and fails an attack on Robot. Puppet Master gets into it, failing an attempt to control Mammoth by one. Then he fails an attempt to control Human Torch. Speedy’s health holds up again.
ROUND 4: Thing tries Clobberin’ Speedy, but rolls poorly and she survives. Human Torch Flames On Robot, taking a swipe, then lands and punches Robot out. Even with the Secret Attack Plan, Cap can’t hit Mister Fantastic. Mister Fantastic leads poorly, but KO’s Speedy. Mammoth starts to climb the ladder. Mister Fantastic leads poorly again, and can’t hit Cap. Puppet Maser rolls terribly and can’t control anyone, even Mammoth.
ROUND 5: Thing and Mister Fantastic both fail to hit Cap. Cap rolls terribly, but the Secret Attack Plan and a near whiff by Mister Fantastic secure Mister Fantastic’s second wound. Human Torch moves adjacent to Cap, but can’t wound him. Thing KO’s Cap. Mister Fantastic moves forward to establish a choke point. Mammoth engages Cap from height disadvantage and attacks. Mammoth gets a 4 skull attack, but Mister Fantastic just blocks it. Human Torch, Invisible Woman, and Mister Fantastic poor on the attacks, but only wound Mammoth once. Mammoth gets a 4 skull attack and wound #3 on Mister Fantastic.
ROUND 6: Mammoth went first, using the Secret Attack Plan, but rolled one skull, one shield, and one blank, and was blocked. Thing Clobbers Mammoth for an 8 skull attack and wipes him out. Mammoth’s OMs go to Puppet Master. Puppet Master controls Human Torch, who goes Nova, rolling only 3 skulls, but poor defensive rolls result in the last three wounds on Invisible Woman, 2 wounds on Thing, and a fourth wound on Mister Fantastic. Thing engages Puppet Master and goes full Clobberin’ Time, but Reactive Mind Control ends the turn and sends Thing into the water. Puppet Master misses his next two rolls. Mister Fantastic leads well, but only he can engage Puppet Master. He chooses to lock down Puppet Master instead of attacking.
ROUND 7: Puppet Master follows the Secret Attack Plan, but can’t KO Mister Fantastic. He also can’t disengage thanks to Rubber Wrap, so he can’t String Pull. Puppet Master misses his Reactive Mind Control and is KOed. Oracle gets the next two OMs and turtles to prevent Clobberin’ Time from activating without both Mister Fantastic and Thing moving forward. The next OM is on Thing, though, and he can’t quite reach Oracle. She moves up and punches him, but can’t hit. Thing hits Oracle for two quick wounds.
ROUND 8: Oracle uses her Secret Attack Plan and puts a third wound on Thing. Thing rolls 5 skulls and ends it.
SUMMARY: This map is unkind to melee ground pounders and Mammoth didn’t seem like a logical choice to lead with. By the time he got in the action, Cap was gone, and the Fan Four were able to put their full attention on him and kill him off before he got in many attack (he only attacked 3 times). This seems like an atypical situation, but is certainly an example of how he can be limited and his potential can be controlled defensively.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Thing with 3 Life, Mister Fantastic with 1 Life, and a negated Human Torch with 4 Life win Turn 2, Round 8.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: HYDRA GEHENNA BASE
Units:Mammoth (215), Puppet Master (140), Captain America (240), Robot (210), Speedy (Mi) (80), Oracle (110) (995) VS Superman (400), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (350), Flash (Barry Allen) (250) (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Damage Done: Green Lantern 1 Battery Marker burnt, 1 Wound, Superman 7 Wounds, Flash 1 Wound.
When they were KO’d: Turn 6, Round 9
WEAK-MINDED 4:
SUPER HUMAN RAGE: Attacks where blanks were rolled (5), Attacks that doubled 1 skull (1), Attacks that doubled 2 skulls (1), Attacks that doubled 3 skulls (2), Attacks that doubled 4 skulls (2).
BROTHERLY DUTY: N/A

ROUND 1: Robot carries Mammoth to height first. He’s going to be more of a focal point this time with heavy hitters around. Superman moves up, to the end of his platform. Robot moves back down, ready to carry another passenger. Green Lantern moves up, to the end of his platform. Robot carries Speedy up to height. Green Lantern engages Speedy, hits her for one wound, but fails Fearless Charge. Her health causes her an additional wound at the end of the round.
ROUND 2: Green Lantern KO’s Speedy. Cap moves to his Platform’s ladder and throws his shield at Green Lantern and Supes, but can’t hit either. Green Lantern hits Cap for three quick wounds from height. Mammoth rolls 2 skulls naturally, which are doubled, and gets an auto skull from Oracle against Green Lantern, who sheds a Battery Marker. Green Lantern rolls 4 skulls against Mammoth, but Mammoth blocks (thanks in part to Cap’s help). GL can’t hit Fearless Charge. Cap moves up and rolls 5 skulls against Green Lantern, who sheds another marker. Superman engages Robot on height and inflicts one wound.
ROUND 3: Cap uses the Secret Attack Plan to inflict 2 wounds on Green Lantern. Robot blocks Superman’s attack. Mammoth fully whiffs an attack. Superman puts 3 wounds on Robot, taking Robot up to 4 wounds. Mammoth rolls 2 skulls on Green Lantern, which do not double, thanks to a blank. He inflicts a 3rd wound on Green Lantern this way. Superman finishes off Robot.
ROUND 4: Cap forces Green Lantern to burn his third Battery Marker. Superman puts 2 wounds on Mammoth with a 6 skull attack. Mammoth rolls all skulls on 4 dice against Superman, adding in an auto skull from Oracle, for 9 skulls. Superman blocks 3 of these, and takes 6 wounds! Superman hits Mammoth for 2 more wounds. Mammoth rolls 3 skulls and 1 shield, for a 6 skull attack on Superman, which finishes him off! This steals OM3 from the Justice League.
ROUND 5: Three straight turns from Green Lantern, thanks to Fearless Charge, aren’t enough for him to wound Mammoth. Cap forces GL to burn his last Battery Marker. Green Lantern fails to hit Mammoth on three more attacks. Mammoth rolls 3 skulls and 1 shield and finishes Green Lantern off. Flash moves forward onto shadow tiles in the middle of the map. Mammoth jumps down and attacks, but blanks stop his 1 skull from doubling. Flash Speed Dodges anyway.
ROUND 6: Cap climbs to height on the platform. Flash runs up and tries to hit Cap with Fist Fusillade, but can’t. Mammoth walks to the stairs. Flash hits him from height for one wound, then runs back up to the top rung. Mammoth is again stuck on one skull. Flash Speed Dodges again anyway. Flash hits Mammoth again, but Mammoth blocks.
ROUND 7: Flash attacks Mammoth from height, but Mammoth blocks. Cap throws a shield at Flash, and Flash takes a wound. Cap’s extra defense die saves Mammoth from taking his final wound from Flash. Mammoth doubles one skull and gets an auto skull from Oracle to get a wound on Flash. Flash rolls 2 skulls on 6 attack dice for what feels like the third straight turn. Mammoth laughs it off. Mammoth rolls all shields. Flash rolls 3 skulls, but can’t touch Mammoth.
ROUND 8: Cap’s shield can’t hit Flash. Flash rolls 2 skulls again and can’t hit Mammoth. Mammoth gets 1 skull that doesn’t double and an auto skull from Oracle, but Flash blocks. Flash rolls 2 skulls and Mammoth easily blocks. Mammoth rolls all skulls for 8 total, but Flash Speed Dodges. Flash finally rolls 5 skulls and finishes Mammoth.
ROUND 9: Flash rolls 4 skulls, but can’t hit Cap on height. Then Flash moves to the ladder on the other side. Cap rolls 4 skulls for a shield throw on Flash, but Flash Speed Dodges his way down the ladder. Flash runs over and uses his special attack to put one wound on Oracle. Cap pursues, but isn’t in shield range. Flash tries his normal attack, but his two skulls can’t hit Oracle. Cap gets just into shield range and Flash, on height, whiffs and dies.

Who won? List figures remaining in the winning army (include life remaining for heroes): Cap with 2 Life, Oracle with 3 Life, and Puppet Master with Full Life win Turn 6, Round 9.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: He’s super swingy. These games really felt like they swung with the dice. In the first game, the Fan Four rolled well and he had trouble positioning himself and they took him out before he amounted to much. In the second game, Superman tried to take him on straight up, and he absolutely dominated the Kryptonite. Then poor rolls by Flash kept him around long enough to do some additional damage.

GENERAL THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT: It’s not his average skulls that are the issue. It’s that if he lasts long enough (and he has good staying power), he’s likely to get at least one really big hit, and those can be game changers. He took out Superman pretty handily here, which is almost a 200 point swing. Cap and Oracle are great partners for him, of course.

[japes]

The thing that I enjoyed when testing him was the fear that he could hit a big roll even if it didn't happen. I found myself playing keep away and hitting him from range to avoid him which felt very thematic. My fear here is that if we take that away he becomes just another heavy hitter. If it's just his survivability that's an issue I have no issues making adjustments here.

Rhino is 6 Life, 5 Def with Tough so I went with 6/6 without Tough for Mammoth. Bulldozer and Piledriver has a 6 Life 5 Defense without Tough so I'd be ok with dropping his defense to 5 if that would help.

[IAmBatman]

I think the dice really swung his way in the second game. I think he's fine, but swingy. Swingy with that upside usually means a high price tag. I guess Rhino maybe could've done that in his place but I doubt it. I'd say he felt 260ish when considering both games.

[japes]

From Gutudak

Originally Posted by Gutudak

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Mammoth and Shimmer

Army Test 1
Map: Alkali Lake
Units:
Mammoth, Gorilla Grodd, Star-Lord, Gamora(1,015)
vs.
Fantastic Four (1,000)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T2: 1 wound on Human Torch with SHR.

Notes:
R1T3: HT puts 3 wounds on Star-Lord.
R2T1: HT takes 2 wounds from LEA, uses FO4, puts 2 wounds on Gamora, then uses Supernova and rolls 5 skulls, killing Gamora and Star-Lord, and then puts 4 wounds on Mammoth.
R2T3: Grodd puts 3 wounds on IW.
R2T3: Thing clobbers Grodd with a full Clobberin Time double, kills him.
R3T2: Thing clobbers Mammoth and kills him.

Human Torch and Invisible Woman with 4 wounds each, and Mr. Fantastic and Thing with 0 wounds.

Both teams met at the center of the map. Grodd, Star-Lord, Gamora, and Mammoth all a couple spaces apart. Human Torch used FO4 then Supernova, killing Star-Lord and Gamora, as well as hurting Mammoth quite a bit. Grodd puts 4 wounds on IW, and Mammoth almost kills Human Torch, but Thing goes on a clobberin' spree and clobbers the both of them real good.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 2
Map: Alkali Lake
Units:
Mammoth, Shimmer, Captain America, Valkyrie(1,005)
vs.
Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Wolverine, Spider-Man(980)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:
R2T2: 1 wound on Cage with SHR, Shimmer reveals X.
R3T2: 2 wounds on Wolverine with SHR.
R4T2: 4 wounds on Wolverine(botched defense) with SHR.
R4T3: 2 wounds on Wolverine, kills him.

Shimmer Attack Damage:
R8T1: 1 wound on Spider-Man with Transmutation.

Notes:
R1T3: IF puts 2 wounds on Valkyrie.
R2T1: Cap kills Iron Fist.
R2T3: Wolverine puts 2 wounds on Mammoth.
R3T1: Cap kills Luke Cage.
R3T3: Wolverine puts 3 wounds on Mammoth.
R4T1: Wolverine puts 2 wound son Cap.
R5T2: Spider-Man kills Cap.
R6T3: Spider-Man kills Valkyrie.
R7T1: Spider-Man kills Mammoth.
R7T3: Spider-Man puts 3 wounds on Shimmer.
R8T1: Spider-Man kills Shimmer.

Spider-Man with 1 wound.

Both teams took the top center, and Luke Cage moved closer to the enemy base with Iron Fist. Iron Fist gets blasted by a huge attack, dying. Cage drops back. Wolverine and Spider-Man join him and take the top center. Spider-Man struggled to take out Cap, as Valkyrie kept intercepting wounds. Eventually Cage dies, then Wolverine, as well as Cap then Mammoth and Valkyrie. Leaving Shimmer vs. Spider-Man, and she couldn't do much as he kept moving and avoiding attacks. Spider-Man kills her.

___________________________________________________________

Army Test 3
Map: Alkali Lake
Units:
Mammoth, Shimmer, Invisible Woman, Darkseid(1,010)
vs.
Star-Lord, Gamora, Groot, Rocket(1,010)

Spoiler Alert!

Attack Damage:


Shimmer Attack Damage:
R4T3: 1 wound on Star-Lord with Transmutation.
R5T1: 1 wound on Star-Lord with Transmutation.

Notes:
R2T1: Darkseid puts 3 wounds on Gamora.
R2T1: Rocket puts 2 wounds on Darkseid.
R2T3: Mammoth takes 2 wounds from LEA.
R2T3: Gamora puts 3 wounds on Darkseid.
R3T1: Gamora kills Darkseid.
R3T2: Gamora kills Mammoth.
R4T1: Gamora puts 2 wounds on Invisible Woman.
R4T2: Star-Lord puts 2 wounds on Shimmer.
R4T3: Gamora kills IW with godslayer.
R5T2: Gamora kills Shimmer.

Star-Lord and Gamora with 2 wounds each, Groot and Rocket with 0 wounds.

Both teams met on the road near the big pine tree. Gamora leading the charge for the Guardians, and Darkseid for Mammoth's team. Darkseid scored a big hit on Gamora, but she answered back and eventually killed him then Mammoth before he could successfully break through her defense. Invisible Woman was then killed by Gamora, and then Shimmer as well.

THOUGHTS ON THE TESTED UNIT'S COST, BALANCE, & DRAFTABILITY: I feel like Shimmer's very overcosted, by 30 or so points. Currently I don't even feel like she is even worth drafting with Mammoth. I feel like Mammoth has a lot of potential. He either he hits hard or not at all. His points feel about right. The main thing is it's difficult to get a synergy with him. 230 seems about right. But Shimmer I'm not impressed with at all. She has interesting abilities, but it doesn't feel like she's not living up to her points.

[japes]

So using the Battering Ram approach where you step back to get some momentum forward I'd like to take Mammoth without Shimmer and get his right and then worry about her.

Since the change to 3 attack without Shimmer and at 215 (Guta played him at 230 but his team had a 15 point overage so it was effectively 215, and he still lost) Mammoth is 1 and 2 and all games where blowout. Win and Losses.

Is there still a consensus that he still has a balance issue and we want to reduce his durability or do we just want to bump him up a little for the possibility of him going on a hot streak.

I'm OK with dropping him to 5 Defense if that lowers the concern of the hot streak. I'm even open to tweaking Shimmer so her boost isn't so devastating but I'm happy with the mechanic as is with Mammoth's rage and don't want to change that if it's not absolutely necessary.
@IAmBatman @Karat @Viegon @TrollBrute @johnny139
@dok @Dysole @Soundwarp SG-1 @weebaer

Please give me some guidance here.

[IAmBatman]

I'd throw out my first test. I was still trying to figure out how to use him on that map and he just never really got a proper opportunity. I think 215 is too low for him, even as is. He's better than Rhino, IMO. I'd be OK with him as is at 240, probably.

[japes]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'd throw out my first test. I was still trying to figure out how to use him on that map and he just never really got a proper opportunity. I think 215 is too low for him, even as is. He's better than Rhino, IMO. I'd be OK with him as is at 240, probably.

Ark and Ronin thought 230 was good but none of the test justified that to me. 240 seems really high. I know I'm not the best player but head to head Rhino and Kraven dominated Mammoth for us. Kraven I chalked up to a bad matchup but Rhino seemed more equivalent.

[IAmBatman]

He whooped Superman I (400) in my test, though I suppose Cap (240) gets some credit for boosting him.

[Dysole]

I mean I've never found the power to be game breaking. It's solid and swingy. 6 life, 6 defense is a pretty tough nut to crack though. The longer Mammoth is alive the greater the chance that the swinginess swings in your favor.

~Dysole, rolling with the punches

[IAmBatman]

Yeah, I think that's the big thing. If you feel 215, japes, I'm feeling 240, and the other two testers are feeling 230, I'd probably go 225 or 230 (230 to be safe).

An interesting test would be to send him out at 260 and see if anyone feels he's overcosted. If folks would pay that much for him, he's definitely undercosted at 215.

I might try to run some one-on-ones with Rhino if I get a chance.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Actually, I like that idea, @IAmBatman . But what about sending to a few people at 240? If they don't think he's overcosted then maybe that's the sweetspot.