The Book of Ninjak

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

I feel like narrative importance absolutely plays a role in how effective a character is, and if it’s a part of their character it should be considered within the game. It’s not “Character A is more popular than Character B, that means Character A is more powerful.” It’s that, within the realm of his story, Batman’s actual effectiveness is boosted to insane, seemingly supernatural levels because the narrative says so. Like you said, the writers write him as overblown, and like it or not (I tend to lean towards not), I think he should be portrayed in C3G the way he is in the comics.

This logic works a bit better. But at the same time, it falls apart for me here: with Indy designs, many don't know the narrative importance, and refuse to acknowledge it, or come to understand it.

Example is right here, even when told that this guy is both the narrative and archetypal equivalent of Batman for this universe, the response is "Yeah but he's not Batman." We're like back and forthing on separate trains of logic. Saying Batman has an important narrative weight I'll concede, but saying similar characters can't and shouldn't come close to his because they aren't Batman is not a fair logic in Indy universes. Of course a line with 8 or 9 books isn't going to have a character that feels as excessively overblown as Batman when you aren't actually scaling things by universe and instead are making Batman the character in the DC Universe an immovable comparison point without scaling archetypes and concepts appropriately.

When I get to people like Quantum and Woody, they're totally gonna be low-level folks with low stats. Ninjak isn't the baseline of physical normal humans (which again, he's not normal anyway), he IS their peak.

[LordVenoc]

Also, at this point this is a design philosophy debate, that I don't think is really impacting this design itself (yet). I don't think its a bad one to have as we branch out more into other non Big Two universes, but it probably shouldn't clog this design up more than my directionless frustration already has.

[MrNobody]

I guess if we can both agree Batman is written as overblown to a near-unparalleled degree, then I don’t see why it doesn’t follow that he shouldn’t be overblown in C3G as well.

I just see him as pretty much the one exception to what I consider the general guideline of “human/near-human characters belong under 250, preferably under 240.” And he gets that distinction frankly because he’s Batman, and he has a history of being hyper-effective that pretty much no other character in fiction at the same power level can match.

EDIT: I agree this is now an off-topic discussion. Sorry for derailing.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by johnny139

Yeah, Ninjak is definitely Batman tier and 5 Attack is definitely reasonable.

For the new Glyphs: like the idea for both but in general feel like they'd be distractingly complex for a card that's otherwise pretty lean.

Do you have a different idea perchance? Those are definitely his most used equipments, save for his like stealth poisons. I could see dropping the sole bomb off the boots if you're feeling that makes it too much, or if you think the climbing should be pared down.

Not sure what to do with the drone. I like the spy feel, but I do get what you're saying about complexity, especially now that the shuriken are more straightforward.

[quozl]

I think combining his gadget powers into cool powers on his card is the way to go. Get rid of the equipment glyphs entirely if you can.

[Lazy Orang]

I am absolutely against using Batman as the gold-standard of 'this is the best a human can be, if he's not Batman, he shouldn't be as good'. That being said, I am absolutely in favour of factoring narrative importance and 'plot armour' into a design, to a degree, at least (if someone proposed a 400 point Batman who can actually beat Superman on a consistent basis, I'd have something to say) - I mean, let's face it, the only reason any non-enhanced Human is reaching near 200 and able to beat small armies of squaddies solo, or even that the weaker heroes are generally a bit stronger than squaddies and have multiple life, is because heroes have plot-armour; I long ago decided that Heroscape is more cinematic than realistic, and I prefer it that way. (Realistically, Comissioner Gordon probably shouldn't be stronger than a S.H.I.E.L.D. Agent, but, as I said, plot armour is a thing.) However, it should be based on a character's narrative importance and plot armour within their own universe, not on a meta-popularity contest.





A good example of an application of this is Liu Kang - he's basically just a normal human martial artist with a few minor mystical things going on. However, in-universe, he's the most super special and impressive normal human martial artist ever, a consistent champion of the deadliest fighting tournament ever and can beat the scariest crap Outworld has to throw at Earthrealm, and he's costed as such, despite the weakness of not being called Bruce Wayne. That should be our standard, IMO.

[IAmBatman]

NAME = NINJAK
SECRET IDENTITY = COLIN KING

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = AGENT
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 5
MOVE = 6
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 5
POINTS = 240

COMBAT MOVEMENT
When moving up levels of height to move onto a space with this figure, count one space for each five levels. You may ignore this figure’s height when climbing. This figure never takes falling damage or major falling damage and does not take leaving engagement attacks. After moving and before attacking, you may remove an unrevealed Order Marker from this card to inflict one automatic wound on a figure within 4 clear sight spaces.

PRECISION SHURIKEN SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 6. Attack 3.
Choose a non-adjacent figure to attack. If at least one blank is rolled, you may choose to ignore this attack and inflict a wound on the targeted figure. When Ninjak attacks with this special attack, he may attack 2 additional times. He cannot attack the same figure more than once.

TACTICAL IMPROVISATION
Once per turn, if a figure you control within 6 clear sight spaces of Ninjak attacks and fails to wound an opponent's figure, you must immediately move one unrevealed order marker from a card you control to Ninjak's card.

[Ronin]

Fwiw, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a 'clean' design without the glyphs. I'd probably simplify from Bats' suggested Combat Movement power, though.

[quozl]

I'd drop Tactical Improv for another gadget power, personally.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Ronin

Fwiw, I definitely wouldn't mind seeing a 'clean' design without the glyphs. I'd probably simplify from Bats' suggested Combat Movement power, though.

Originally Posted by quozl

I'd drop Tactical Improv for another gadget power, personally.

I'm on board with both of those ideas, fwiw.

[Ronin]

I like Tactical Improv a lot. I feel like most of his gadgets are subtle rather than flashy and I don't mind them being baked into a movement power.

[LordVenoc]

I think I'm going to have to take some time to think more on the direction I want here, as it sounds like a lot of people wanting some directions that I think lose something of what was exciting me about the design. I stymied my initial instinct when I wrote this up to give him free reign of the Utility picks because there were unthematic ones I didn't care for. I liked when we were heading more secret agent, but now it feels like we are stepping back.

Appreciate the feedback and I'm gonna see what I can maybe reconcile it into.